6 ms·

Not only cloud, but the entire defense industry that was hibernating for the past 70 years, for you know good reasons. All of these nice F35s made in USA, will

Not only cloud, but the entire defense industry that was hibernating for the past 70 years, for you know good reasons. All of these nice F35s made in USA, will soon have no buyers except the USA itself.

BoredPositron 2y ago
Germany pretty much only ordered the F-35 to carry US nuclear weapons because their current platform (Tornado) is getting retired. They didn't want to hand over Typhoon schematics to retrofit it. They pretty much only had the choice between F18s or F35s.
- cheaprentalyeti 2y ago
  You know, if we were really adversarial, it would be really really wise to reconsider allowing German planes, whether home built or bought from the US, "loaner" nuclear weapons to carry into battle.
  - BoredPositron 2y ago
    What? At least read a wiki article before commenting because it looks like you have no idea about the extended nuclear umbrella and how it works.
nosianu 2y ago
That is very optimistic. Given that for today's election here in Germany actual problems barely played a role. Not just that, over the last two decades very little was done. For example, we have skyrocketing rents due to a general lack of housing, which leads to all kinds of problems apart from affordability. For example worker mobility. Who dares to move to another job and city when it's so hard to find a flat? That's par for the course for almost all big problems. I think the probability is high that the new German government is going to try to sit this one out. After all, they survived Trump the last time, and it's only four years, right? Worse, they would have to do many things that will be very unpopular with one or the other interest group. Unless somebody puts a gun to the heads of all those in government they will procrastinate rather than make any big changes. I see little chance that they will cancel the order for US military hardware. They might actually buy a lot more, to appease Trump. After all, not getting the F-35 would have repercussions for the nuclear sharing agreement with the US. They need the F-35 to have a certified platform for nuclear bombs they are supposed to get from the US, stored in Germany for that purpose. That would mean they would need a European approach to nuclear weapon sharing and weapons. The German government regularly has trouble even just to work together with only France, due to wildly different philosophies and interests. Europe is far too divided, and the German government sees its role in doing as little as possible when it comes to radical change. I think part of it is that the leadership of all our big parties mostly consists of politicians whose whole life is just that. They don't have anything else. Even if they get a job at a company it's for their political connections. They won't risk this, and they barely have any strong opinions! They look at polls and change what they stand for accordingly and easily. I'm not saying this to sound mean, I think that this is a mostly accurate description. Opposing the US would take spine! It's a lot of trouble and uncertainty. They will try to avoid that if at all possible. ---------- By the way, it's not just F-35. Germany also ordered the Israeli-American Arrow 3 long-range missile defense system, sixty CH-47 Chinook, and 380 other contracts worth 23 billion just from the "Sondervermögen" (special fund) of 100 billion. Surely that will just become more, given that Germany continues to need to purchase things like Patriot missiles. The strategy was - to the chagrin of the French if I understood the news articles written at the time right - to rather buy something proven and quickly available from the Americans rather than start a lengthy inter-European development process.
jandrewrogers 2y ago
The F-35 is an extremely compelling and competitive product, with some unique forward-looking capabilities that are difficult to replicate. It was also built for export, both technically and politically, so many of the foreign buyers are more invested in it than they may otherwise be. It is this generation's F-16, many thousands will be built and sold.
- jonathanstrange 2y ago
  Not if the US becomes more and more adversarial, especially if they jeopardize NATO. The current administration already acts almost like an enemy of Europe, it's quite baffling. Politicians have to justify military expenses to the voters.
- secondcoming 2y ago
  But will the US renege on the supply of spare parts? Will it tear up existing deals and say 'accept the new terms or your planes won't fly'?
  - whatever1 2y ago
    Not sure how valuable is the hand that Trump has. Why today would one spend $100M on 1 equipment unit when you can pump instead $100M and get 10M unstoppable drones?
    - throwup238 2y ago
      $100M/10M drones = $10 per drone. What drones are you going to get for $10 each (now or in the future)? How are they “unstoppable”? How are you going to deploy millions of $10 drones on the battlefield without tons of $100M platforms that can survive AA defenses long enough to get to the engagement? How much range do you think $10 of batteries even gets you?
      - whatever1 2y ago
        I can today assemble a drone from parts from Alipay and program the firmware in an esp32 for ~ 20$. I am not kidding, Google it. That is without me manufacturing any of the components. If one had a nation state backing I am confident it can be done for a fraction of it. They are unstoppable because if you have a tank and there is a swarm of 500 of them what do you aim? One of them will find the opening to drop the grenade on your tanks weak spot. These are all single use kamikaze drones. Same for battery range. Europe is preparing for a defensive war on their land. Even 10 miles of ranges should suffice. You can always deploy them from a mothership.

BoredPositron 2y ago

Germany pretty much only ordered the F-35 to carry US nuclear weapons because their current platform (Tornado) is getting retired. They didn't want to hand over Typhoon schematics to retrofit it. They pretty much only had the choice between F18s or F35s.

cheaprentalyeti 2y ago
You know, if we were really adversarial, it would be really really wise to reconsider allowing German planes, whether home built or bought from the US, "loaner" nuclear weapons to carry into battle.
- BoredPositron 2y ago
  What? At least read a wiki article before commenting because it looks like you have no idea about the extended nuclear umbrella and how it works.

nosianu 2y ago

That is very optimistic. Given that for today's election here in Germany actual problems barely played a role. Not just that, over the last two decades very little was done. For example, we have skyrocketing rents due to a general lack of housing, which leads to all kinds of problems apart from affordability. For example worker mobility. Who dares to move to another job and city when it's so hard to find a flat? That's par for the course for almost all big problems. I think the probability is high that the new German government is going to try to sit this one out. After all, they survived Trump the last time, and it's only four years, right? Worse, they would have to do many things that will be very unpopular with one or the other interest group. Unless somebody puts a gun to the heads of all those in government they will procrastinate rather than make any big changes. I see little chance that they will cancel the order for US military hardware. They might actually buy a lot more, to appease Trump. After all, not getting the F-35 would have repercussions for the nuclear sharing agreement with the US. They need the F-35 to have a certified platform for nuclear bombs they are supposed to get from the US, stored in Germany for that purpose. That would mean they would need a European approach to nuclear weapon sharing and weapons. The German government regularly has trouble even just to work together with only France, due to wildly different philosophies and interests. Europe is far too divided, and the German government sees its role in doing as little as possible when it comes to radical change. I think part of it is that the leadership of all our big parties mostly consists of politicians whose whole life is just that. They don't have anything else. Even if they get a job at a company it's for their political connections. They won't risk this, and they barely have any strong opinions! They look at polls and change what they stand for accordingly and easily. I'm not saying this to sound mean, I think that this is a mostly accurate description. Opposing the US would take spine! It's a lot of trouble and uncertainty. They will try to avoid that if at all possible. ---------- By the way, it's not just F-35. Germany also ordered the Israeli-American Arrow 3 long-range missile defense system, sixty CH-47 Chinook, and 380 other contracts worth 23 billion just from the "Sondervermögen" (special fund) of 100 billion. Surely that will just become more, given that Germany continues to need to purchase things like Patriot missiles. The strategy was - to the chagrin of the French if I understood the news articles written at the time right - to rather buy something proven and quickly available from the Americans rather than start a lengthy inter-European development process.

jandrewrogers 2y ago

The F-35 is an extremely compelling and competitive product, with some unique forward-looking capabilities that are difficult to replicate. It was also built for export, both technically and politically, so many of the foreign buyers are more invested in it than they may otherwise be. It is this generation's F-16, many thousands will be built and sold.

jonathanstrange 2y ago
Not if the US becomes more and more adversarial, especially if they jeopardize NATO. The current administration already acts almost like an enemy of Europe, it's quite baffling. Politicians have to justify military expenses to the voters.
secondcoming 2y ago
But will the US renege on the supply of spare parts? Will it tear up existing deals and say 'accept the new terms or your planes won't fly'?
- whatever1 2y ago
  Not sure how valuable is the hand that Trump has. Why today would one spend $100M on 1 equipment unit when you can pump instead $100M and get 10M unstoppable drones?
  - throwup238 2y ago
    $100M/10M drones = $10 per drone. What drones are you going to get for $10 each (now or in the future)? How are they “unstoppable”? How are you going to deploy millions of $10 drones on the battlefield without tons of $100M platforms that can survive AA defenses long enough to get to the engagement? How much range do you think $10 of batteries even gets you?
    - whatever1 2y ago
      I can today assemble a drone from parts from Alipay and program the firmware in an esp32 for ~ 20$. I am not kidding, Google it. That is without me manufacturing any of the components. If one had a nation state backing I am confident it can be done for a fraction of it. They are unstoppable because if you have a tank and there is a swarm of 500 of them what do you aim? One of them will find the opening to drop the grenade on your tanks weak spot. These are all single use kamikaze drones. Same for battery range. Europe is preparing for a defensive war on their land. Even 10 miles of ranges should suffice. You can always deploy them from a mothership.