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I wish this was true. You can't even get hired if you're proficient in a language, but don't know framework X. Which is understandable for, say Ruby (I don't kn

I wish this was true. You can't even get hired if you're proficient in a language, but don't know framework X. Which is understandable for, say Ruby (I don't know anyone who knows Ruby, but doesn't know Rails), but it's inexcusable for JavaScript. I've been programming JavaScript since like 1997. Sure, I'll pick up React no problem, but I won't be touching it unless I'm paid, because React is a disgrace. But it's not just these languages. It's every other language pretty much. You want to be hired as Go dev? Better know how to use gRPC and Kafka. Java? Better know Spring. I can go on and on.

koakuma-chan 2y ago
I would argue that gRPC and Kafka is "general knowledge" in the sense that these are language-agnostic. In other words there is no requirement "Go language knowledge," but a requirement "gRPC and Kafka knowledge."
- usrbinenv 2y ago
  It really isn't. It's very much tied to certain stacks, while it's completely uncommon in others stacks, because they're solving the same problems in a different way. I've never touched it in my life. Sure, I can pick it up, but I fail to see how it should be considered common.
  - koakuma-chan 2y ago
    I see your point, but I still don't think you can just say "If you want to get a job as a Go developer, you must know gRPC." Even more so for Kafka, I've only heard about it being popular in the Java world. You can't even say "If you want to get a job as a Java developer, you must know Spring." Nowadays, sane Java projects use https://vertx.io https://vertx.io, it's just too good. I would argue that Spring is for legacy projects only.
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      > You can't even say "If you want to get a job as a Java developer, you must know Spring." Majority of job postings say otherwise. (Any sane Java projects use Quarkus (which is build on top of Vert.x, but that’s besides the point))
      - koakuma-chan 2y ago
        > Majority of job postings say otherwise. Isn't it because the majority of job postings are for legacy projects? Also: glad I'm not the only one who uses nested parentheses.
koakuma-chan 2y ago
I personally can't get hired because nobody is hiring for entry-level positions.
- usrbinenv 2y ago
  Well, how ironic we're in the same boat, it seems. Only I can't get hired because I'm 40 and have many years of experience and everyone seems to assume I'm either a snowflake or will cost them. Granted, I can only afford remote positions at the moment, but then I'm not asking for a lot of money either and I'm fairly easy going. I sure have my preferences, but they're few. What's really making it all unbearable is this leetcode and multiple-round-interviews are just exhausting and they don't lead anywhere, it seems. Nobody's even looking at your published open-source code (which is what I used to do first when I used to hire people). I don't really know if I'll ever work as a software-engineer ever again. Reduced to a hobby, I suppose.
  - koakuma-chan 2y ago
    Funnily enough, at the only coding interview I ever had, they specifically told me they won't ask leetcode questions, and they had me write some very simple React code. I think the companies that do those leetcode-style interviews are mostly just those big ones, where it's HR who decides how to interview. I would suggest looking for companies that are small enough to actually care.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      Sadly the trends of the big company trickle down as well. I've been leetcoded at defense contractors and medium sized startups alike.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Reaching 50, what keeps me going is enterprise consulting, I also doubt I would have much luck with product companies. I also join the tone, if what a position is advising for isn't part of what I have done on the last 5 years, than crickets, regardless if I can prove the experience during the interview, or have used the technology further away than those 5 years.
quectophoton 2y ago
Unless someone can vouch for you at the company you're applying to, that's unfortunately the game that job seekers have to play. > You can't even get hired if you're proficient in a language, but don't know framework X. You can't even get past the very first screening filter. If job asks for, say, 5 years of experience with React, it doesn't matter if you have experience in any other frameworks but "only" 4yoe with React or less. You won't pass the first filter because 4<5. Sucks if you don't want to lie. > I've been programming JavaScript since like 1997. Sure, I'll pick up React no problem, but I won't be touching it unless I'm paid, because React is a disgrace. At the beginning of the month I had an interview for a role that needed to extract a Node.js project to its own microservice. I have literally done this in production (but not Node.js). I have also migrated another project from NoSQL to SQL (but the project was not Node.js). I have developed microservices currently used in production (from design to Terraform to implementation). But long story short, I didn't pass the initial interview because I haven't been paid to use Node.js during a recent 5-year job. The interviewer even asked, quoting to the best of my memory (and translating to English), "sorry, but none of this was with Node.js?". They were hyperfocused on Node.js as specific tech. Previous production experience with Node.js? Experience with JavaScript/TypeScript in general? Doesn't matter. That was not even worth the benefit of allowing me to pass to the technical interview to let me prove myself. And I wouldn't have even minded a live coding/pair-programming exercise. It means I still need to work better on how I market myself to non-tech people. > You want to be hired as Go dev? Better know how to use gRPC and Kafka. And you better know Kubernetes (for some reason), or enjoy working on cryptocurrency projects.
- usrbinenv 2y ago
  Honestly, I'm greatly annoyed by recruiters. They don't know a single thing about programming and operate solely on keywords. My personal approach now is to just tell them "I have this much experience, I have lots of open-source code which proves my experience, get me an interview with the actual team if they like my resume". Because in 99% of cases it's not even worth the time for a call with a recruiter. Btw, in your particular example, I think it's fair to tell them "yes, I have the exact qualifications you're looking for", because they won't be able to check anyway. And certainly not whether you had 4 or 5 years of experience with a particular thing.

koakuma-chan 2y ago

I would argue that gRPC and Kafka is "general knowledge" in the sense that these are language-agnostic. In other words there is no requirement "Go language knowledge," but a requirement "gRPC and Kafka knowledge."

usrbinenv 2y ago
It really isn't. It's very much tied to certain stacks, while it's completely uncommon in others stacks, because they're solving the same problems in a different way. I've never touched it in my life. Sure, I can pick it up, but I fail to see how it should be considered common.
- koakuma-chan 2y ago
  I see your point, but I still don't think you can just say "If you want to get a job as a Go developer, you must know gRPC." Even more so for Kafka, I've only heard about it being popular in the Java world. You can't even say "If you want to get a job as a Java developer, you must know Spring." Nowadays, sane Java projects use https://vertx.io https://vertx.io, it's just too good. I would argue that Spring is for legacy projects only.
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    > You can't even say "If you want to get a job as a Java developer, you must know Spring." Majority of job postings say otherwise. (Any sane Java projects use Quarkus (which is build on top of Vert.x, but that’s besides the point))
    - koakuma-chan 2y ago
      > Majority of job postings say otherwise. Isn't it because the majority of job postings are for legacy projects? Also: glad I'm not the only one who uses nested parentheses.

koakuma-chan 2y ago

I personally can't get hired because nobody is hiring for entry-level positions.

usrbinenv 2y ago
Well, how ironic we're in the same boat, it seems. Only I can't get hired because I'm 40 and have many years of experience and everyone seems to assume I'm either a snowflake or will cost them. Granted, I can only afford remote positions at the moment, but then I'm not asking for a lot of money either and I'm fairly easy going. I sure have my preferences, but they're few. What's really making it all unbearable is this leetcode and multiple-round-interviews are just exhausting and they don't lead anywhere, it seems. Nobody's even looking at your published open-source code (which is what I used to do first when I used to hire people). I don't really know if I'll ever work as a software-engineer ever again. Reduced to a hobby, I suppose.
- koakuma-chan 2y ago
  Funnily enough, at the only coding interview I ever had, they specifically told me they won't ask leetcode questions, and they had me write some very simple React code. I think the companies that do those leetcode-style interviews are mostly just those big ones, where it's HR who decides how to interview. I would suggest looking for companies that are small enough to actually care.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    Sadly the trends of the big company trickle down as well. I've been leetcoded at defense contractors and medium sized startups alike.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Reaching 50, what keeps me going is enterprise consulting, I also doubt I would have much luck with product companies. I also join the tone, if what a position is advising for isn't part of what I have done on the last 5 years, than crickets, regardless if I can prove the experience during the interview, or have used the technology further away than those 5 years.

quectophoton 2y ago

Unless someone can vouch for you at the company you're applying to, that's unfortunately the game that job seekers have to play. > You can't even get hired if you're proficient in a language, but don't know framework X. You can't even get past the very first screening filter. If job asks for, say, 5 years of experience with React, it doesn't matter if you have experience in any other frameworks but "only" 4yoe with React or less. You won't pass the first filter because 4<5. Sucks if you don't want to lie. > I've been programming JavaScript since like 1997. Sure, I'll pick up React no problem, but I won't be touching it unless I'm paid, because React is a disgrace. At the beginning of the month I had an interview for a role that needed to extract a Node.js project to its own microservice. I have literally done this in production (but not Node.js). I have also migrated another project from NoSQL to SQL (but the project was not Node.js). I have developed microservices currently used in production (from design to Terraform to implementation). But long story short, I didn't pass the initial interview because I haven't been paid to use Node.js during a recent 5-year job. The interviewer even asked, quoting to the best of my memory (and translating to English), "sorry, but none of this was with Node.js?". They were hyperfocused on Node.js as specific tech. Previous production experience with Node.js? Experience with JavaScript/TypeScript in general? Doesn't matter. That was not even worth the benefit of allowing me to pass to the technical interview to let me prove myself. And I wouldn't have even minded a live coding/pair-programming exercise. It means I still need to work better on how I market myself to non-tech people. > You want to be hired as Go dev? Better know how to use gRPC and Kafka. And you better know Kubernetes (for some reason), or enjoy working on cryptocurrency projects.

usrbinenv 2y ago
Honestly, I'm greatly annoyed by recruiters. They don't know a single thing about programming and operate solely on keywords. My personal approach now is to just tell them "I have this much experience, I have lots of open-source code which proves my experience, get me an interview with the actual team if they like my resume". Because in 99% of cases it's not even worth the time for a call with a recruiter. Btw, in your particular example, I think it's fair to tell them "yes, I have the exact qualifications you're looking for", because they won't be able to check anyway. And certainly not whether you had 4 or 5 years of experience with a particular thing.