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I mean, isn't the US saying that taxing imports is an ideal source of revenue? But at the end of the day, there was never any real incentive to make an EU-nati

by blagie 2y ago

I mean, isn't the US saying that taxing imports is an ideal source of revenue? But at the end of the day, there was never any real incentive to make an EU-native alternative. Now, there is. The US is in an uncertain state. Will American be great again? A fascist dictatorship? Argentina? Who the heck knows. Right now, we have a lot of speculation about what's going on and precious little information. Unreliable partners give a very, very strong incentive to have critical infrastructure local. Beyond that, what's the downside? Before, it risked triggering a trade war. Seems we're there already, and going local just gives a stronger hand.

graemep 2y ago
The British government only fairly recently decided it needed to remove Chinese cameras from sensitive sites. They were complete happy to, for a long time, to give that power to a country that is an actual fascist dictatorship. Governments are too short termist to care. Its probably OK for the next few years so keep it cheap The danger is not just governments. Its businesses, and even consumer systems. If another country can brick all your vehicles or look through all your spy cameras or take down your telecoms then they have a great deal of power over you. This will only change after something happens.
- blagie 2y ago
  As a point of fact, China is not, in fact, a fascist dictatorship. North Korea is not a fascist dictatorship either. Neither is or was Cuba, or medieval kingdoms with actual kings and warlords. Fascism is a right-wing ideology was widespread throughout all of Europe before WWII, and especially took hold in Germany, Austria, and Italy. It was at the opposite end of the political spectrum from e.g. Stalinist Russia. It is not a synonym for "bad government," "dictatorship," "violent government," or similar.
  - graemep 2y ago
    I agree that it is important to use the word fascist accurately, but it is also not not as well defined as you say. There is a reasonable case for calling China fascist. It has a cult of personality, state control of the economy, nationalism, racism, elimination of minority cultures. It is far more like Germany, Italy or Spain the in the 1930s than it is like Stalinist Russia.
    - blagie 2y ago
      All of those apply to Ancient Egypt too, only more so. I did not give a definition for fascism. You can look ones up yourself. However, critically: 1. China is not right-wing. That's prerequisite. 2. China has very little fascist-style state / political violence, and virtually no paramilitary elements. You're at no risk of being beaten up or having your windows broken for having the wrong political views. Police officers didn't even have guns until recently. There aren't Brown Shirts and Black Shirts, are groups like the fascist right-wing militias in the US. Rather, the state violence you see there is institutionalized violence, through proper administrative and bureaucratic channels. 3. China has nationalism, but is very much not ultra-nationalist. 4. China does not try to eliminate minorities if they play ball. Indeed, China is very supportive of non-Han groups (who were, e.g. exempt from One Child). Rather, what you see is forceful "modernization" and cultural assimilation, leading up to violence if there isn't compliance. If the Muslim minorities in China decided to give up their religion, culture, and desire for freedom, and started to act like Han Chinese, they'd almost certainly be left alone. You saw the same directed at Han during the Great Leap Forward. For Jews in 1930 Germany, assimilating was very much not enough to be left alone. 5. Control of the economy is limited and directed. A lot of the Chinese economy is also like the Wild West. .... and so on. Note that I'm not passing a value judgment on which system of government is better or worse. However, "fascist" is not the same as "totalitarian." One of the key things in China is that if you (personally and collectively) go along with the government, for the most part, you're very safe, and life is quite peaceful. Another is that most control is "soft." The wrong post online will simply be hard to find, load slowly, or not show up for other users. Or you'll have a harder time moving up in life. It's very little like Germany, Italy or Spain the in the 1930s, where you had armed groups walking the streets, breaking windows.
      - graemep 2y ago
        > China is not right-wing. That's prerequisite. Define right wing in this context. Its historically communist, but it not really so any more, as you your self admit "Control of the economy is limited and directed" > China has nationalism, but is very much not ultra-nationalist. It is very nationalist and believes its culture to be superior to minority culture which is why they are assimilating it. > For Jews in 1930 Germany, assimilating was very much not enough to be left alone. True, but I said "fascism" not "nazism" which are not the same thing. > Rather, the state violence you see there is institutionalized violence, through proper administrative and bureaucratic channels. is that a necessary trait? The Brownshirts were got rid of once the Nazis were in power. Once you control the state you no longer need the paramilitary. > However, "fascist" is not the same as "totalitarian." I agree, but I think China has a lot of traits in common with fascist states. it might not tick all the boxes in a definition, but it ticks far more than the typical dictatorship.

by blagie 2y ago

graemep 2y ago

The British government only fairly recently decided it needed to remove Chinese cameras from sensitive sites. They were complete happy to, for a long time, to give that power to a country that is an actual fascist dictatorship. Governments are too short termist to care. Its probably OK for the next few years so keep it cheap The danger is not just governments. Its businesses, and even consumer systems. If another country can brick all your vehicles or look through all your spy cameras or take down your telecoms then they have a great deal of power over you. This will only change after something happens.

blagie 2y ago
As a point of fact, China is not, in fact, a fascist dictatorship. North Korea is not a fascist dictatorship either. Neither is or was Cuba, or medieval kingdoms with actual kings and warlords. Fascism is a right-wing ideology was widespread throughout all of Europe before WWII, and especially took hold in Germany, Austria, and Italy. It was at the opposite end of the political spectrum from e.g. Stalinist Russia. It is not a synonym for "bad government," "dictatorship," "violent government," or similar.
- graemep 2y ago
  I agree that it is important to use the word fascist accurately, but it is also not not as well defined as you say. There is a reasonable case for calling China fascist. It has a cult of personality, state control of the economy, nationalism, racism, elimination of minority cultures. It is far more like Germany, Italy or Spain the in the 1930s than it is like Stalinist Russia.
  - blagie 2y ago
    All of those apply to Ancient Egypt too, only more so. I did not give a definition for fascism. You can look ones up yourself. However, critically: 1. China is not right-wing. That's prerequisite. 2. China has very little fascist-style state / political violence, and virtually no paramilitary elements. You're at no risk of being beaten up or having your windows broken for having the wrong political views. Police officers didn't even have guns until recently. There aren't Brown Shirts and Black Shirts, are groups like the fascist right-wing militias in the US. Rather, the state violence you see there is institutionalized violence, through proper administrative and bureaucratic channels. 3. China has nationalism, but is very much not ultra-nationalist. 4. China does not try to eliminate minorities if they play ball. Indeed, China is very supportive of non-Han groups (who were, e.g. exempt from One Child). Rather, what you see is forceful "modernization" and cultural assimilation, leading up to violence if there isn't compliance. If the Muslim minorities in China decided to give up their religion, culture, and desire for freedom, and started to act like Han Chinese, they'd almost certainly be left alone. You saw the same directed at Han during the Great Leap Forward. For Jews in 1930 Germany, assimilating was very much not enough to be left alone. 5. Control of the economy is limited and directed. A lot of the Chinese economy is also like the Wild West. .... and so on. Note that I'm not passing a value judgment on which system of government is better or worse. However, "fascist" is not the same as "totalitarian." One of the key things in China is that if you (personally and collectively) go along with the government, for the most part, you're very safe, and life is quite peaceful. Another is that most control is "soft." The wrong post online will simply be hard to find, load slowly, or not show up for other users. Or you'll have a harder time moving up in life. It's very little like Germany, Italy or Spain the in the 1930s, where you had armed groups walking the streets, breaking windows.
    - graemep 2y ago
      > China is not right-wing. That's prerequisite. Define right wing in this context. Its historically communist, but it not really so any more, as you your self admit "Control of the economy is limited and directed" > China has nationalism, but is very much not ultra-nationalist. It is very nationalist and believes its culture to be superior to minority culture which is why they are assimilating it. > For Jews in 1930 Germany, assimilating was very much not enough to be left alone. True, but I said "fascism" not "nazism" which are not the same thing. > Rather, the state violence you see there is institutionalized violence, through proper administrative and bureaucratic channels. is that a necessary trait? The Brownshirts were got rid of once the Nazis were in power. Once you control the state you no longer need the paramilitary. > However, "fascist" is not the same as "totalitarian." I agree, but I think China has a lot of traits in common with fascist states. it might not tick all the boxes in a definition, but it ticks far more than the typical dictatorship.