5 ms·

Immune markers of post COVID vaccination syndrome indicate future research

30 points by cempaka 2y ago

yobbo 2y ago
> Typically spike protein can be detected for a few days after vaccination, but some participants with PVS had detectable levels more than 700 days after their last vaccination. Something like this; cells with vaccine RNA are producing spike protein (at least) but are spared by the immune system, possibly for good reasons (such as being part of critical organs or tissue). These cells will eventually recycle, which is why the symptoms dissipate over years.
- cempaka 2y ago
  The advertised mechanism of action was that once the mRNA itself had dissipated, the cells would no longer create spike proteins. The idea wasn't that the shots would cause some of your own healthy cells to become targets of your immune system. When we don't understand how the spike protein is still being created in the first place, I don't think we could say with any confidence that it will stop once cells are cycled out.
  - logicchains 2y ago
    >When we don't understand how the spike protein is still being created in the first place One possibility is due to reverse transcription of the spike production into the human DNA, as demonstrated in vitro by https://www.mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73 https://www.mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73
  - yobbo 2y ago
    My understanding was rather that the immune system removes cells with vaccine mRNA, which causes the various advertised negative side-effects. When the cells are removed, spike protein production stops.
Retric 2y ago
“exercise intolerance, excessive fatigue, brain fog, insomnia, and dizziness” Seems like a lot of overlap with with “Long COVID” etc https://www.cdc.gov/covid/long-term-effects/long-covid-signs-symptoms.html https://www.cdc.gov/covid/long-term-effects/long-covid-signs... Would be interesting if the vaccine was simply excessively powerful in doing its job rather than a more direct issue. Like thanks for saving millions of lives, but did you have to be so loud?
- cempaka 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mattmaroon 2y ago
    There were probably hundreds of thousands saved in even in what at the time were considered very low risk demos. It may be over 1 million (if you mutliply infection fatality rate times number of people in the 0-49 age demo, you get just over a million). And, perhaps more relevant, the vaccine probably prevented a numer of long covid cases that is a multiple of that and many times higher than the reaction this article is writing about. It was in no way reckless. All interventions have risk. If a vacccine saves a life/prevents long term illness for 10x as many people as it hurts, it's a highly positive intervention, and the numbers for these were probably much better than 10x.
  - logicchains 2y ago
    Recent data ( https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/medicine/articles/10.3389/fmed.2024.1495428/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/medicine/articles/10.33... ) suggests that any lives saved may only have been saved in the medium term; "In the medium-term post-COVID period, the risk of death was reduced by 8% for those who had been vaccinated while in the long-term post-COVID period, the risk of death almost doubled for those who had been vaccinated. While in the medium term, there was a reduction in mortality risk for those who took two or three doses, in the long term the risk of death was greater for those who took one or two doses."
    - 2y ago
spondylosaurus 2y ago
> From participants’ blood samples, the researchers looked for immune features that were different between the two groups. They found several differences in immune cell populations; those with PVS had lower levels of effector CD4+ T cells and higher levels of TNF-alpha+ CD8 T cells — both are types of white blood cells — among other differences. TNF is one of the suspected accomplices in a lot of autoimmune conditions, and the target of a class of drugs called TNF inhibitors. (Not everyone responds to them equally well, so TNF might not play an equal role in all patients; other people respond better to drugs that target various interleukins or integrins). These aren't the cheapest drugs ever, so it would be hard to experiment with off-label use, but if TNF plays a role in long COVID/immunization reactions, I'd be very curious whether TNF inhibitors could help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNF_inhibitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNF_inhibitor
TwoNineFive 2y ago
Another day, another pile of COVID skeptic FUD and health conspiracy/influencer posts on HN.
- marcus0x62 2y ago
  Ah, yes, that noted bastion of health disinformation and conspiracy theories, Yale. I guess it isn’t technically wrong to refer to the linked researcher as an influencer, as her 336 publications have been cited 43,649 times.
  - cempaka 2y ago
    Apparently it's now downvote-worthy to simplify recapitulate claims that were made in bog standard "here's how the mRNA vaccines work!" videos in 2021.

30 points by cempaka 2y ago

> Typically spike protein can be detected for a few days after vaccination, but some participants with PVS had detectable levels more than 700 days after their last vaccination. Something like this; cells with vaccine RNA are producing spike protein (at least) but are spared by the immune system, possibly for good reasons (such as being part of critical organs or tissue). These cells will eventually recycle, which is why the symptoms dissipate over years.

cempaka 2y ago
The advertised mechanism of action was that once the mRNA itself had dissipated, the cells would no longer create spike proteins. The idea wasn't that the shots would cause some of your own healthy cells to become targets of your immune system. When we don't understand how the spike protein is still being created in the first place, I don't think we could say with any confidence that it will stop once cells are cycled out.
- logicchains 2y ago
  >When we don't understand how the spike protein is still being created in the first place One possibility is due to reverse transcription of the spike production into the human DNA, as demonstrated in vitro by https://www.mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73 https://www.mdpi.com/1467-3045/44/3/73
- yobbo 2y ago
  My understanding was rather that the immune system removes cells with vaccine mRNA, which causes the various advertised negative side-effects. When the cells are removed, spike protein production stops.

Retric 2y ago

“exercise intolerance, excessive fatigue, brain fog, insomnia, and dizziness” Seems like a lot of overlap with with “Long COVID” etc https://www.cdc.gov/covid/long-term-effects/long-covid-signs-symptoms.html https://www.cdc.gov/covid/long-term-effects/long-covid-signs... Would be interesting if the vaccine was simply excessively powerful in doing its job rather than a more direct issue. Like thanks for saving millions of lives, but did you have to be so loud?

cempaka 2y ago
[flagged]
- mattmaroon 2y ago
  There were probably hundreds of thousands saved in even in what at the time were considered very low risk demos. It may be over 1 million (if you mutliply infection fatality rate times number of people in the 0-49 age demo, you get just over a million). And, perhaps more relevant, the vaccine probably prevented a numer of long covid cases that is a multiple of that and many times higher than the reaction this article is writing about. It was in no way reckless. All interventions have risk. If a vacccine saves a life/prevents long term illness for 10x as many people as it hurts, it's a highly positive intervention, and the numbers for these were probably much better than 10x.
- logicchains 2y ago
  Recent data ( https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/medicine/articles/10.3389/fmed.2024.1495428/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/medicine/articles/10.33... ) suggests that any lives saved may only have been saved in the medium term; "In the medium-term post-COVID period, the risk of death was reduced by 8% for those who had been vaccinated while in the long-term post-COVID period, the risk of death almost doubled for those who had been vaccinated. While in the medium term, there was a reduction in mortality risk for those who took two or three doses, in the long term the risk of death was greater for those who took one or two doses."
  - 2y ago

spondylosaurus 2y ago

> From participants’ blood samples, the researchers looked for immune features that were different between the two groups. They found several differences in immune cell populations; those with PVS had lower levels of effector CD4+ T cells and higher levels of TNF-alpha+ CD8 T cells — both are types of white blood cells — among other differences. TNF is one of the suspected accomplices in a lot of autoimmune conditions, and the target of a class of drugs called TNF inhibitors. (Not everyone responds to them equally well, so TNF might not play an equal role in all patients; other people respond better to drugs that target various interleukins or integrins). These aren't the cheapest drugs ever, so it would be hard to experiment with off-label use, but if TNF plays a role in long COVID/immunization reactions, I'd be very curious whether TNF inhibitors could help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNF_inhibitor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNF_inhibitor

TwoNineFive 2y ago

Another day, another pile of COVID skeptic FUD and health conspiracy/influencer posts on HN.

marcus0x62 2y ago
Ah, yes, that noted bastion of health disinformation and conspiracy theories, Yale. I guess it isn’t technically wrong to refer to the linked researcher as an influencer, as her 336 publications have been cited 43,649 times.
- cempaka 2y ago
  Apparently it's now downvote-worthy to simplify recapitulate claims that were made in bog standard "here's how the mRNA vaccines work!" videos in 2021.