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Economically viable safe methane fuel cells would be revolutionary, too.

by baq 2y ago

number6 2y ago
Fusion!
audunw 2y ago
If we’re could get a breakthrough in fuel cells it’d be even nicer if it was an efficient fuel cell for a liquid fuel. And to get an efficient way to make it from CO2 and electricity. Though I think for ground transportation, batteries will always be preferable.
- tastyfreeze 2y ago
  Direct methanol fuel cells are a thing. It may not fit your definition of efficient but that is the technology I think should be pursued. There are multiple biological, chemical and electrochemical pathways to produce methanol. That means that there could be an economic way to produce it nearly everywhere. Another interesting technology is redox flow batteries. The fluid itself is charged. Fluid storage can be sized to the charge/use requirements. Or you can haul in "charged" fluid. But since the fluid is not consumed, discharged fluid would need to be taken away. Making hauling is less efficient.
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
Still releases carbon. Better than ICE and gasoline, but the cheapest methane is still from the ground.
Svoka 2y ago
I believe fuel cells with ubiquity of electricity is just beating the dead horse. Like, what are cons and pros? EVs: + Much simpler design + Literally zero maintenance required + Centralized power production is extremely efficient + Power production can be 100% carbon free in 10 years, if there's will with nuclear and other 'renewables' + Can be charged literally everywhere where's sun in theory, but in every home with outlet in practice + Batteries are crucial to every part of our tech today so they will become better - Heavy (low energy density compared to fuel, which isn't great for planes etc) Fuel Cells: + high energy density + less dirty than gasoline + allow oil producers to stay in business + keeps mechanics in business - requires mechanics and expensive maintenance - complex designs for combustion engines + gearboxes + drive trains - requires immense infrastructure change to adopt Unless I miss something. What is the point of fuel cells/combustion engines for consumer use? I understand there are applications where energy density is necessary, like cargo ships, rockets or airplanes. Otherwise, seems like a welfare program for industries built around resource extraction and complicated machinery. But for consumers, what is the point of fuel cells? This is honest question. If I missed some con/pro let me know I'll add it.
- danans 2y ago
  > Otherwise, seems like a welfare program for industries built around resource extraction and complicated machinery. You say this dismissively, but that's exactly what it is. The basic problem with renewable energy (especially solar and batteries) is that there is no way for the existing fossil energy industry to replicate the extractive oligopolies around the production, delivery, and utilization of energy that they have with oil and gas.
  - Svoka 2y ago
    I am not saying it dismissively. As you could see this is a "pro" point in my list. I honestly recognize that it's a transition. But IMO better option is to have hybrid type EV with smaller battery + Fuel Cell generator. Or just throw away combustion engines where they are not needed.
    - danans 2y ago
      > But IMO better option is to have hybrid type EV with smaller battery + Fuel Cell generator. That's exactly what fuel cell vehicles are today. They just don't have a plug or a battery with enough capacity to make a plug worthwhile.

Economically viable safe methane fuel cells would be revolutionary, too.

by baq 2y ago

Economically viable safe methane fuel cells would be revolutionary, too.

number6 2y ago

Fusion!

audunw 2y ago

If we’re could get a breakthrough in fuel cells it’d be even nicer if it was an efficient fuel cell for a liquid fuel. And to get an efficient way to make it from CO2 and electricity. Though I think for ground transportation, batteries will always be preferable.

tastyfreeze 2y ago
Direct methanol fuel cells are a thing. It may not fit your definition of efficient but that is the technology I think should be pursued. There are multiple biological, chemical and electrochemical pathways to produce methanol. That means that there could be an economic way to produce it nearly everywhere. Another interesting technology is redox flow batteries. The fluid itself is charged. Fluid storage can be sized to the charge/use requirements. Or you can haul in "charged" fluid. But since the fluid is not consumed, discharged fluid would need to be taken away. Making hauling is less efficient.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

Still releases carbon. Better than ICE and gasoline, but the cheapest methane is still from the ground.

Svoka 2y ago

I believe fuel cells with ubiquity of electricity is just beating the dead horse. Like, what are cons and pros? EVs: + Much simpler design + Literally zero maintenance required + Centralized power production is extremely efficient + Power production can be 100% carbon free in 10 years, if there's will with nuclear and other 'renewables' + Can be charged literally everywhere where's sun in theory, but in every home with outlet in practice + Batteries are crucial to every part of our tech today so they will become better - Heavy (low energy density compared to fuel, which isn't great for planes etc) Fuel Cells: + high energy density + less dirty than gasoline + allow oil producers to stay in business + keeps mechanics in business - requires mechanics and expensive maintenance - complex designs for combustion engines + gearboxes + drive trains - requires immense infrastructure change to adopt Unless I miss something. What is the point of fuel cells/combustion engines for consumer use? I understand there are applications where energy density is necessary, like cargo ships, rockets or airplanes. Otherwise, seems like a welfare program for industries built around resource extraction and complicated machinery. But for consumers, what is the point of fuel cells? This is honest question. If I missed some con/pro let me know I'll add it.

danans 2y ago
> Otherwise, seems like a welfare program for industries built around resource extraction and complicated machinery. You say this dismissively, but that's exactly what it is. The basic problem with renewable energy (especially solar and batteries) is that there is no way for the existing fossil energy industry to replicate the extractive oligopolies around the production, delivery, and utilization of energy that they have with oil and gas.
- Svoka 2y ago
  I am not saying it dismissively. As you could see this is a "pro" point in my list. I honestly recognize that it's a transition. But IMO better option is to have hybrid type EV with smaller battery + Fuel Cell generator. Or just throw away combustion engines where they are not needed.
  - danans 2y ago
    > But IMO better option is to have hybrid type EV with smaller battery + Fuel Cell generator. That's exactly what fuel cell vehicles are today. They just don't have a plug or a battery with enough capacity to make a plug worthwhile.