4 ms·

I’m sure you can find some evidence of that. You also need to find evidence that every department that is getting slashed has those kind of inefficiencies. The

I’m sure you can find some evidence of that. You also need to find evidence that every department that is getting slashed has those kind of inefficiencies. The government is large and complex. Even inside large companies, which are comparatively smaller you’ll find different departments have different level of inefficiencies.

dcow 2y ago
Which is why a discussion on this topic at such a high level isn't really productive. You need to look at each line item and ask whether it’s fraud/waste/abuse and then make a call. That is exactly what DOGE is doing. If you don’t trust them then you’ll never get to a discussion on meaningful details.
- smegger001 2y ago
  Its not. they are just firing everyone they can. if they were being careful and looking at every line item they would not have accidentally fired the engineers that maintain our nuclear weapon initiating a mad scramble to rehire them. you cant have small team doing that level of audit in the time frames they have been in operation.
  - dcow 2y ago
    You can—you’re watching it happen. Sounds like the problem was swiftly remedied.
    - smegger001 2y ago
      They wouldn't have fired them in the first place if they had been doing a line by line audit. This is the equivalent of flipping every breaker in the box turn off one light in an apartment building. Sure the light turned off but you also turned off everyone's refrigerators, and the oxygen machine the old lady in apartment 3b needs to live. But you turned it back on the breakers of anyone who came down and complained... unfortunately the old lady died but she didn't make it down to complain. the question is who are Doge going to kill with their actions that wont get their complaints heard?
      - dcow 2y ago
        Nothing concerns me less than a quickly remedied mistake. PS: at many time’s I’ve been successful using the “flip every breaker” strategy. A well designed oxygen machine has a battery and a fridge can tolerate a brief power outage.
        Jcowell 2y ago
        > A well designed oxygen machine has a battery and a fridge can tolerate a brief power outage. Sure, but you would at least do the due diligence to confirm that the case for Mrs Shelby before you YOLO it and wish for the best with her life on the line.
        SmirkingRevenge 2y ago
        Many of the mistakes they are making are not being remedied, nor will the consequences be obvious in the short term. There really isn't any upside for anyone in this whole thing except for Trump, Elon and their buddies. And they are breaking the law. The farce of this whole thing is that none of the destructive cuts they've made will amount to a hill of beans compared to federal spending. They're jumping over hundred dollar bills to chase pennies. (That's b/c none of this is actually about making government more efficient)
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  But that's _not_ what DOGE is doing.
  - dcow 2y ago
    What are they doing, then?
    - throw0101a 2y ago
      > What are they doing, then? Un-reforming the civil service: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service_reform_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service_reform_in_the_Un... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system
Arkhadia 2y ago
“The government is large and complex” EXATLY the issue.
- ave_b_2011 2y ago
  The country is almost 340 million people. That’s 340,000,000 individuals of all ages, backgrounds, and geographies. They wake up every morning and go about their lives. Things like planes need to stay in the air, water needs to be clean, trains need to not derail in the middle of towns, dams need to stay not only structurally sounds but in some cases keep producing electricity. The USA is the fourth largest country by area in the entire world. To say that the government is too big and complex and it should be smaller and simpler feels like a drastic oversimplification and incredibly simple thing to say.
  - 6figurelenins 2y ago
    > To say that the government is too big and complex and it should be smaller and simpler feels like a drastic oversimplification and incredibly simple thing to say. I can stipulate there must be essential complexity. I think we have to dispute any suggestion that this hypothetically-essential complexity has grown at the same rate as the spending[1]. It's not obvious that fairness, charity, national defense, public health, postage stamps, corn ethanol... [or air traffic control (cough), clean water (cough), non-derailing trains (cough), levees (cough)]..., ad infinitum should require a static percentage of the economy. Essential or not, those costs fundamentally cannot continue to outpace real GDP growth. Rather, it seems obvious to me that the political class has scope-creeped "governance" into spending as an end in itself. Practically, and morally, the government is too big and complex, and it should be drastically smaller and simpler. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#Historical_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#H...
- consteval 2y ago
  Is there any way to provide care, education, and prosperity for hundreds of millions of people that is not complex? We're software engineers. If anyone should understand the difference between domain complexity and added complexity, it should be us.

dcow 2y ago

Which is why a discussion on this topic at such a high level isn't really productive. You need to look at each line item and ask whether it’s fraud/waste/abuse and then make a call. That is exactly what DOGE is doing. If you don’t trust them then you’ll never get to a discussion on meaningful details.

smegger001 2y ago
Its not. they are just firing everyone they can. if they were being careful and looking at every line item they would not have accidentally fired the engineers that maintain our nuclear weapon initiating a mad scramble to rehire them. you cant have small team doing that level of audit in the time frames they have been in operation.
- dcow 2y ago
  You can—you’re watching it happen. Sounds like the problem was swiftly remedied.
  - smegger001 2y ago
    They wouldn't have fired them in the first place if they had been doing a line by line audit. This is the equivalent of flipping every breaker in the box turn off one light in an apartment building. Sure the light turned off but you also turned off everyone's refrigerators, and the oxygen machine the old lady in apartment 3b needs to live. But you turned it back on the breakers of anyone who came down and complained... unfortunately the old lady died but she didn't make it down to complain. the question is who are Doge going to kill with their actions that wont get their complaints heard?
    - dcow 2y ago
      Nothing concerns me less than a quickly remedied mistake. PS: at many time’s I’ve been successful using the “flip every breaker” strategy. A well designed oxygen machine has a battery and a fridge can tolerate a brief power outage.
      - Jcowell 2y ago
        > A well designed oxygen machine has a battery and a fridge can tolerate a brief power outage. Sure, but you would at least do the due diligence to confirm that the case for Mrs Shelby before you YOLO it and wish for the best with her life on the line.
      - SmirkingRevenge 2y ago
        Many of the mistakes they are making are not being remedied, nor will the consequences be obvious in the short term. There really isn't any upside for anyone in this whole thing except for Trump, Elon and their buddies. And they are breaking the law. The farce of this whole thing is that none of the destructive cuts they've made will amount to a hill of beans compared to federal spending. They're jumping over hundred dollar bills to chase pennies. (That's b/c none of this is actually about making government more efficient)
insane_dreamer 2y ago
But that's _not_ what DOGE is doing.
- dcow 2y ago
  What are they doing, then?
  - throw0101a 2y ago
    > What are they doing, then? Un-reforming the civil service: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service_reform_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_service_reform_in_the_Un... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system

Arkhadia 2y ago

“The government is large and complex” EXATLY the issue.

ave_b_2011 2y ago
The country is almost 340 million people. That’s 340,000,000 individuals of all ages, backgrounds, and geographies. They wake up every morning and go about their lives. Things like planes need to stay in the air, water needs to be clean, trains need to not derail in the middle of towns, dams need to stay not only structurally sounds but in some cases keep producing electricity. The USA is the fourth largest country by area in the entire world. To say that the government is too big and complex and it should be smaller and simpler feels like a drastic oversimplification and incredibly simple thing to say.
- 6figurelenins 2y ago
  > To say that the government is too big and complex and it should be smaller and simpler feels like a drastic oversimplification and incredibly simple thing to say. I can stipulate there must be essential complexity. I think we have to dispute any suggestion that this hypothetically-essential complexity has grown at the same rate as the spending[1]. It's not obvious that fairness, charity, national defense, public health, postage stamps, corn ethanol... [or air traffic control (cough), clean water (cough), non-derailing trains (cough), levees (cough)]..., ad infinitum should require a static percentage of the economy. Essential or not, those costs fundamentally cannot continue to outpace real GDP growth. Rather, it seems obvious to me that the political class has scope-creeped "governance" into spending as an end in itself. Practically, and morally, the government is too big and complex, and it should be drastically smaller and simpler. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#Historical_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#H...
consteval 2y ago
Is there any way to provide care, education, and prosperity for hundreds of millions of people that is not complex? We're software engineers. If anyone should understand the difference between domain complexity and added complexity, it should be us.