4 ms·

I like to think I am extremely attentive to bug reports (I’m always paranoid about my code possibly containing bugs, so I err on the side of turning every stone

I like to think I am extremely attentive to bug reports (I’m always paranoid about my code possibly containing bugs, so I err on the side of turning every stone), so I would probably not make Jerry’s mistake here, but sure as hell if a manager tried to humiliate me that much I would just quit on the spot. In my opinion, there are ways to share feedback that allow another person to save face, letting them process it on their own terms instead of pounding them like this in a single session until they are “defeated”. Such feedback can then be politely repeated, if the issue reoccurs later on, and formally documented as part of a performance warning, simply letting the other person know, once again without insisting, that this is a serious behavioral issue that will have repercussions if not actioned, and that you are there to provide any context should they want to talk about it more. That is, in my opinion, a way for a leader to show that every team member is treated as an adult and responsible for their own actions and outcome.

Herring 2y ago
Yeah, even just acknowledging the other guy's valid point, like "I agree with you, Bermuda is not part of the Caribbean, so yes it's deceptive to return it in the search results." Sales is often deceptive. I think that's why the author was so defensive, notably about "honesty".
- kcplate 2y ago
  >>> Jerry: But I made some good decisions about what shows up when. For instance, I don’t like the idea of showing deals for Bermuda when someone searches for “Caribbean” While Bermuda not being part of the Caribbean might be true…it’s really not a valid point in this circumstance. It was an apparent dev assumption that this level of precision was desired even if it wasn’t requested or its absence as a requirement was a mistake. When it was reported as a bug, that should have prompted the developer to clarify with the PM the OG requirement so they were both on the same page. He didn’t, he assumed she was wrong…apparently twice. The PM probably understood that to their lay users the terms “Bermuda”, “Caribbean”, and “Islands” all have a degree of marketing relevance to each other (There is a reason why you might dumb down search results for something like that). Judging by what was information given in the story, apparently dumbed down search results was known and required in the past. Not sure there is any “right” way to gently coach an employee that disregarded proper protocol and requirements, lied about it, blamed a colleague, and initially refused to accept responsibility when it was brought to their attention. That would be damn frustrating. I know HN loves to blame the manager, but this is one of those instances where it seems every portion of the problem and its escalation appears to lie solely at the feet of the developer. It least in my opinion.
  - Herring 2y ago
    It’s super easy to coach an employee about this. I’ve done it many times, even once publicly to a director while I was a senior. Just acknowledge their train of thought extra generously, then explain why this case is different. ChatGPT has been trained to do this. I’d say your paragraph 2 was great, and yes the manager should have tried talking about “level of precision” or “marketing relevance” instead of defaulting forcefully to “because i/product said so”.
    - kcplate 2y ago
      Yeah I agree that the manager seemed to leap pretty quick onto the “you don’t get to have independent thought in secret” train. Of course we only see one side of the story too. But it kind of feels to me like this might not have been the first time there has been a need to coach this person either. Not sure that just one instance really gets you to lack of trust. I’ve been in the business a long time in multiple roles up to senior leadership. I am at the sunset of my career and found a lovely tech role where I happily don’t have to manage anyone but myself and it’s glorious. In all that time I have encountered my fair share of the Jerry types in the last almost 40 years so I am probably jaded and know the frustration.
      - Herring 2y ago
        Yeah and maybe the employee has been asked to implement dark patterns before. Such is modern capitalism.
        kcplate 2y ago
        I’d suggest that if the general populace that use your app sort of see “Caribbean”, “Islands”, “Bermuda” to a degree of equivalence to the general area that they are considering for vacation, it’s probably not a dark pattern.
        Herring 2y ago
        Ethics is like wearing a condom. If someone tries to tell you that you don't need to worry about it (after defaulting to force!), then you *really* need to worry about it. Edit: Sure enough, look at your comments. Elon, Tesla, Musk, Trump, Trump. Hilarious + predictable.
malfist 2y ago
To be honest, reading the communications, the manager backed him in a corner and then just kept hammering. There's no place for the employee to go besides to defensive. If you're a manager and the employee can't give you anything but complete and utter capitulation to satisfy you, you're not taking to them, you're just making yourself feel better about disliking them
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
Spivak 2y ago
> letting them process it on their own terms instead of pounding them like this in a single session until they are “defeated”. When you combine this with a difference in authority, as it is in this situation, it's even worse to behave this way. If this person was a peer and wasn't forced to sit through this "meeting" I can imagine they would have hung up about 20% through it. He treated his subordinate like a child and didn't even handle it well in that context. Even in the situation where the employee was is wrong it reflects poorly on the manager. It's wild to be bragging about it on the internet. Being the authority figure means you are expected to be the adult in the room and understand the other person even when they lack the words to express themselves. That's why you're paid the big bucks.
weitendorf 2y ago
The manager was hounding Jerry because (at least according to their version of the story) he was still not accepting responsibility for his actions and acknowledging that what he did was wrong. If Jerry was not willing to accept that responsibility, then him quitting would be the ideal outcome anyway, so I understand why the manager was pushing him like this. OTOH the manager should have been smarter about acknowledging Jerry's thinking (technically Bermuda is not in the Caribbean) and in explaining why they needed to overrule that (vacationers searching for Caribbean destinations mostly want to see listings for Bermuda). Their messaging was pretty disempowering to Jerry, kind of like saying "shut up code monkey, dance when the product team tells you to". > every team member is treated as an adult Adults take responsibility for their own actions. If someone is lying like this and being difficult to work with you want them to either get it together or leave. It's not about saving their feelings or letting them save face anymore. Let them leave. You can replace Jerry, and you'd rather he leave than the people who aren't being difficult.
from-nibly 2y ago
There is a difference between humiliating someone and driving a point home for sure. But the world doesn't have time for people who need to "save face". That is a personal problem that needs to be figured out off company time.
- ludston 2y ago
  Eh, even when you don't like it, managing egos is an important part of being an effective leader. We're social creatures, and nobody wants to work with somebody that is comfortable humiliating them.

Herring 2y ago

Yeah, even just acknowledging the other guy's valid point, like "I agree with you, Bermuda is not part of the Caribbean, so yes it's deceptive to return it in the search results." Sales is often deceptive. I think that's why the author was so defensive, notably about "honesty".

kcplate 2y ago
>>> Jerry: But I made some good decisions about what shows up when. For instance, I don’t like the idea of showing deals for Bermuda when someone searches for “Caribbean” While Bermuda not being part of the Caribbean might be true…it’s really not a valid point in this circumstance. It was an apparent dev assumption that this level of precision was desired even if it wasn’t requested or its absence as a requirement was a mistake. When it was reported as a bug, that should have prompted the developer to clarify with the PM the OG requirement so they were both on the same page. He didn’t, he assumed she was wrong…apparently twice. The PM probably understood that to their lay users the terms “Bermuda”, “Caribbean”, and “Islands” all have a degree of marketing relevance to each other (There is a reason why you might dumb down search results for something like that). Judging by what was information given in the story, apparently dumbed down search results was known and required in the past. Not sure there is any “right” way to gently coach an employee that disregarded proper protocol and requirements, lied about it, blamed a colleague, and initially refused to accept responsibility when it was brought to their attention. That would be damn frustrating. I know HN loves to blame the manager, but this is one of those instances where it seems every portion of the problem and its escalation appears to lie solely at the feet of the developer. It least in my opinion.
- Herring 2y ago
  It’s super easy to coach an employee about this. I’ve done it many times, even once publicly to a director while I was a senior. Just acknowledge their train of thought extra generously, then explain why this case is different. ChatGPT has been trained to do this. I’d say your paragraph 2 was great, and yes the manager should have tried talking about “level of precision” or “marketing relevance” instead of defaulting forcefully to “because i/product said so”.
  - kcplate 2y ago
    Yeah I agree that the manager seemed to leap pretty quick onto the “you don’t get to have independent thought in secret” train. Of course we only see one side of the story too. But it kind of feels to me like this might not have been the first time there has been a need to coach this person either. Not sure that just one instance really gets you to lack of trust. I’ve been in the business a long time in multiple roles up to senior leadership. I am at the sunset of my career and found a lovely tech role where I happily don’t have to manage anyone but myself and it’s glorious. In all that time I have encountered my fair share of the Jerry types in the last almost 40 years so I am probably jaded and know the frustration.
    - Herring 2y ago
      Yeah and maybe the employee has been asked to implement dark patterns before. Such is modern capitalism.
      - kcplate 2y ago
        I’d suggest that if the general populace that use your app sort of see “Caribbean”, “Islands”, “Bermuda” to a degree of equivalence to the general area that they are considering for vacation, it’s probably not a dark pattern.
        Herring 2y ago
        Ethics is like wearing a condom. If someone tries to tell you that you don't need to worry about it (after defaulting to force!), then you *really* need to worry about it. Edit: Sure enough, look at your comments. Elon, Tesla, Musk, Trump, Trump. Hilarious + predictable.

malfist 2y ago

To be honest, reading the communications, the manager backed him in a corner and then just kept hammering. There's no place for the employee to go besides to defensive. If you're a manager and the employee can't give you anything but complete and utter capitulation to satisfy you, you're not taking to them, you're just making yourself feel better about disliking them

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Spivak 2y ago

> letting them process it on their own terms instead of pounding them like this in a single session until they are “defeated”. When you combine this with a difference in authority, as it is in this situation, it's even worse to behave this way. If this person was a peer and wasn't forced to sit through this "meeting" I can imagine they would have hung up about 20% through it. He treated his subordinate like a child and didn't even handle it well in that context. Even in the situation where the employee was is wrong it reflects poorly on the manager. It's wild to be bragging about it on the internet. Being the authority figure means you are expected to be the adult in the room and understand the other person even when they lack the words to express themselves. That's why you're paid the big bucks.

weitendorf 2y ago

The manager was hounding Jerry because (at least according to their version of the story) he was still not accepting responsibility for his actions and acknowledging that what he did was wrong. If Jerry was not willing to accept that responsibility, then him quitting would be the ideal outcome anyway, so I understand why the manager was pushing him like this. OTOH the manager should have been smarter about acknowledging Jerry's thinking (technically Bermuda is not in the Caribbean) and in explaining why they needed to overrule that (vacationers searching for Caribbean destinations mostly want to see listings for Bermuda). Their messaging was pretty disempowering to Jerry, kind of like saying "shut up code monkey, dance when the product team tells you to". > every team member is treated as an adult Adults take responsibility for their own actions. If someone is lying like this and being difficult to work with you want them to either get it together or leave. It's not about saving their feelings or letting them save face anymore. Let them leave. You can replace Jerry, and you'd rather he leave than the people who aren't being difficult.

from-nibly 2y ago

There is a difference between humiliating someone and driving a point home for sure. But the world doesn't have time for people who need to "save face". That is a personal problem that needs to be figured out off company time.

ludston 2y ago
Eh, even when you don't like it, managing egos is an important part of being an effective leader. We're social creatures, and nobody wants to work with somebody that is comfortable humiliating them.