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> All people who make public announcements are in effect holding a conversation with the public No, they're not. Unlike a conversation, a public announcement i

> All people who make public announcements are in effect holding a conversation with the public No, they're not. Unlike a conversation, a public announcement is a one-way, one-to-many communication. > A person in a conversation is socially obligated to make reasonable attempts to speak and respond to other people’s questions, comments, and concerns. In a social setting, with a limited number of participants, sure. But in an internet forum, with an unlimited number of participants, people fail to make reasonable attempts to respond to the entirety of others' comments on a fairly regular basis. And there is absolutely no widespread social obligation otherwise. But this is all entirely irrelevant anyway, because a software project is not the same thing as a conversation in the first place: > the quite reasonable expectations of the public who was led into a conversation with somebody who did not, or ceased to, respect the social rules. Using someone's free software is quite clearly not even remotely the same thing as being "led into a conversation", so there's no reason to expect the same social obligations.

teddyh 2y ago
> respond to the entirety of others' comments You are mischaracterizing what I wrote. I did not say the entirety of others’s comments; I explicitly wrote only “make reasonable attempts”. > Using someone's free software is quite clearly not even remotely the same thing as being "led into a conversation", so there's no reason to expect the same social obligations. Users are still completely reasonable in expecting something. Consider my hypothetical situation I described in the second paragraph here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38310060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38310060>.
- evanelias 2y ago
  > I did not say the entirety of others’s comments; I explicitly wrote only “make reasonable attempts”. OK, but that's still clearly not the widespread social norm in internet forums. For better or worse, it's quite common for commenters to not make any reasonable attempt to respond to sub-threads. > Users are still completely reasonable in expecting something. Consider my hypothetical situation I completely disagree. Your hypothetical situation sounds absolutely like entitlement to me.
  - teddyh 2y ago
    > I completely disagree. Your hypothetical situation sounds absolutely like entitlement to me. Do you mean to say that you think that it would be completely socially acceptable for a maintainer to act as in my hypothetical exaggerated hyperbolic situation? Would you respect anyone who actually did that? Would you remain friends with anyone who did that? Really?
    - evanelias 2y ago
      Assuming it's FOSS, then yes, a maintainer is entirely in their rights to stop maintaining their software for any reason or for no reason at all. If you as a user don't like that, you can fork it, that's the norm for FOSS. As for respecting someone who responded in that specific wording, no, it's unprofessional. But that's orthogonal to whether or not it's entitlement to expect a regular release cadence from a FOSS project that you have no commercial relationship with. As for remaining friends, likewise, that's orthogonal to the topic being discussed.
      - teddyh 2y ago
        > a maintainer is entirely in their rights [but] it's unprofessional It is entirely reasonable for users to expect maintainers to behave respectably. Users may not have any legal rights to be treated professionally, but it does not change the reasonableness of the expectation. > But that's orthogonal It is not orthogonal. We are not discussing any legal rights; we are only discussing what is socially acceptable behavior from maintainers.
        evanelias 2y ago
        You keep moving the goalposts. We're discussing whether it is entitlement to expect a consistent release schedule and ongoing maintenance from a FOSS project, not about respect and professional wording. Nor have I mentioned legal rights in my responses. By entirely in their rights, I meant in terms of social norms and expectations, not legally. (That should be obvious, since the maintainer is not a slave, and free society always legally permits people to stop doing unpaid work and hobbies.) Between multiple subthreads here, several commenters are telling you that your expectations are tantamount to entitlement, and you just don't want to hear it. I'm not going to continue replying to you.

teddyh 2y ago

> respond to the entirety of others' comments You are mischaracterizing what I wrote. I did not say the entirety of others’s comments; I explicitly wrote only “make reasonable attempts”. > Using someone's free software is quite clearly not even remotely the same thing as being "led into a conversation", so there's no reason to expect the same social obligations. Users are still completely reasonable in expecting something. Consider my hypothetical situation I described in the second paragraph here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38310060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38310060>.

evanelias 2y ago
> I did not say the entirety of others’s comments; I explicitly wrote only “make reasonable attempts”. OK, but that's still clearly not the widespread social norm in internet forums. For better or worse, it's quite common for commenters to not make any reasonable attempt to respond to sub-threads. > Users are still completely reasonable in expecting something. Consider my hypothetical situation I completely disagree. Your hypothetical situation sounds absolutely like entitlement to me.
- teddyh 2y ago
  > I completely disagree. Your hypothetical situation sounds absolutely like entitlement to me. Do you mean to say that you think that it would be completely socially acceptable for a maintainer to act as in my hypothetical exaggerated hyperbolic situation? Would you respect anyone who actually did that? Would you remain friends with anyone who did that? Really?
  - evanelias 2y ago
    Assuming it's FOSS, then yes, a maintainer is entirely in their rights to stop maintaining their software for any reason or for no reason at all. If you as a user don't like that, you can fork it, that's the norm for FOSS. As for respecting someone who responded in that specific wording, no, it's unprofessional. But that's orthogonal to whether or not it's entitlement to expect a regular release cadence from a FOSS project that you have no commercial relationship with. As for remaining friends, likewise, that's orthogonal to the topic being discussed.
    - teddyh 2y ago
      > a maintainer is entirely in their rights [but] it's unprofessional It is entirely reasonable for users to expect maintainers to behave respectably. Users may not have any legal rights to be treated professionally, but it does not change the reasonableness of the expectation. > But that's orthogonal It is not orthogonal. We are not discussing any legal rights; we are only discussing what is socially acceptable behavior from maintainers.
      - evanelias 2y ago
        You keep moving the goalposts. We're discussing whether it is entitlement to expect a consistent release schedule and ongoing maintenance from a FOSS project, not about respect and professional wording. Nor have I mentioned legal rights in my responses. By entirely in their rights, I meant in terms of social norms and expectations, not legally. (That should be obvious, since the maintainer is not a slave, and free society always legally permits people to stop doing unpaid work and hobbies.) Between multiple subthreads here, several commenters are telling you that your expectations are tantamount to entitlement, and you just don't want to hear it. I'm not going to continue replying to you.