3 ms·

Ever since Amazon removed copies of Orwell's "1984" from people's Kindles after sale, it's served as a reminder that ownership is a fickle thing. https://gizmod

Ever since Amazon removed copies of Orwell's "1984" from people's Kindles after sale, it's served as a reminder that ownership is a fickle thing. https://gizmodo.com/amazon-secretly-removes-1984-from-the-kindle-5317703 https://gizmodo.com/amazon-secretly-removes-1984-from-the-ki... I buy some ebooks, always without DRM where possible, and promptly strip DRM and stash free copies for others (e.g. from Kobo).

brandall10 2y ago
This seems like an isolated case where an illegitimate provider committed fraud in the early days of the program. Amazon refunded and surely readers were able to purchase a valid copy not much later. Are there any examples where legitimately purchased licenses were made unavailable?
- trescenzi 2y ago
  Sony has recently been caught up in a few things like this. The Discovery shows being the biggest example I’m aware of. It’s definitively not an isolated thing. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/06/technology/sony-playstation-discovery-shows-removal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/06/technology/sony-playstati...
- gaius_baltar 2y ago
  > Are there any examples where legitimately purchased licenses were made unavailable? From customers point of view, these purchases were legitimate. But the important point is that they did it in the past and only the right balance between bad PR and expected profits will prevent them from doing again.
  - LiamPowell 2y ago
    What profits are you referring to given that they refunded everyone?
- fc417fc802 2y ago
  > legitimately purchased licenses Don't confuse an illegitimately purchased license with a legitimately purchased illegitimate license. This is the trouble with "licenses" instead of "items". If I purchase a bootleg book from a physical shop it's not getting clawed back later. The supplier might get in trouble, the physical shop might as well, but nothing is happening to the physical good that I purchased.
  - brandall10 2y ago
    Still, this is an extreme, seemingly one-off outlier. There's nothing shady or below board about their actions. They made a mistake and made all parties whole. There are plenty other reasons to argue against DRM, but I'd argue the chance this one weakens the argument.
    - perryizgr8 2y ago
      > made all parties whole Not really. They went overboard. They reached into devices owned by their customers and deleted books without permission. That was absolutely outside of normal. Imagine amazon selling you a physical book and later sneaking into your house to take it back when they find out the seller had pirated them.
    - RHSeeger 2y ago
      It's not about shady or below board. It's about the fact that they can, at their choice, remove books from people that have paid for them. Since they have this power, and can (effectively) use it without repercussions, it's now just a question of under what circumstances are the people in charge willing to use it. It's the same as when government agencies are given broad, sweeping powers with the explanation of "it makes it easier to do the right thing, and they won't use it to do the wrong thing". Only, the person that gets to decide what it gets used for can change. Then suddenly, they _are_ willing to use it for the wrong thing.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- tlavoie 2y ago
  The point wasn't that they sold something they weren't supposed to, but that they felt it reasonable to "un-sell" something after someone has received it. It showed everyone that electronic purchases can be yoinked away at the first whiff of controversy. Unlike all the copycat, fraudulent crap they continue to sell in physical form to this day.
  - Mistletoe 2y ago
    “Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.” ― George Orwell, 1984
- reaperducer 2y ago
  Are there any examples where legitimately purchased licenses were made unavailable? Not Amazon, but yes: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47810367 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47810367
- like_any_other 2y ago
  > an illegitimate provider committed fraud If an illegitimate provider commits fraud with a physical book, a megacorporation does not hire extra-legal mercenaries to break into my house, steal my copy, and leave cash equal to its price in its place. But this is treated differently just because Amazon manufactured the Kindle (but no longer owns it - they sold it to you, it's not theirs anymore). I suppose if Amazon had built apartments, would we expect them to keep master keys to all the doors, so they can confiscate any of our possessions whose licensing has expired?
  - smegger001 2y ago
    >If an illegitimate provider commits fraud with a physical book, a megacorporation does not hire extra-legal mercenaries to break into my house, steal my copy, and leave cash equal to its price in its place. Except when they do. Hasbro/Wizards of the coast will send Pinkertons (old school corporate "security" firms of the break some kneecaps variety) after you if are inadvertently sent one of their products early by their distributor. They will barge into your home threaten you and take your things and leave not giving you compensation.
    - like_any_other 2y ago
      In that case, we, too, are allowed to unilaterally determine when a corporation has wronged us, and seek out our own restitution, without involving the police or the courts.
      - smegger001 2y ago
        A Mr Luigi Mangione tried that recently it started a multi-state manhunt and shows every sign of being a sham trial and having predetermined sentence. They started with media events where swat team with drawn assault rifles frog march him into court with the NYC mayor in the lead and since been found to have been hiding evidence from his legal defense.
    - account42 2y ago
      Yes, that is illegal. What Amazon did should be illegal too.
- pm3003 2y ago
  Naver Webtoons does that, though I'm sure it doesn't fall into the category of selling ebooks and is probably well crafted on the legal side. You buy in-app credits, you use them to access series and episodes and download them (you download them in a way that you cannot easily save/copy them). Access is typically revoked a few months later or upon series end, and the expiration of your access rights is not announced. These kinds of practices are why everyone is wary of DRM & Co.
- raudette 2y ago
  When Microsoft shut down its eBook store, you could no longer read the eBooks you purchased. They did refund their customers. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47810367 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47810367 Also, there are examples where a company arbitrarily changes its DRM - like when Microsoft launched its Zune media player, it wouldn't play their own "Plays For Sure" DRM music - they just dropped support. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure
userbinator 2y ago
That was very memorable. Of all the books it could happen to, it had to be that one.
- wirthjason 2y ago
  After I downloaded Fahrenheit 451 my hard drive caught fire.
  - 867-5309 2y ago
    shortly after pirating Three Body Problem my homicide count tripled
    - goatlover 2y ago
      That's not what the countdown only you can see, the blinking stars at night, or the hyper realistic VR game with no power source meant ...
    - hardlianotion 2y ago
      wot
    - LocalH 2y ago
      Mine tripled too, and I've never read or watched it. Good thing it was zero to start with
  - MollyRealized 2y ago
    I downloaded 2001 and I'm sorry Dave I can't finish this comment
- dotancohen 2y ago
  Another memorable - and scarily relevant - example was Disney changing the content of some purchased video content. I think it was a Star Wars spinoff, where a user noticed something amiss and the fix was retroactively edited into already-purchased content. That is _exactly_ the type of rewriting the past that 1984 warned us about. This could be - or is - an ultimate form of gaslighting. If it's not on your hard drive, you can never be sure that what you're seeing today is what you saw yesteryear.
BrenBarn 2y ago
It's not so much that ownership is fickle as that it's become harder and harder to gain ownership of things.
- wesapien 2y ago
  The longer we stay in this time line capitalism starts to look like feudalism
- tlavoie 2y ago
  I don't know, is it? I mean, it's often not the convenient choice, but there is still choice. The choice to "license" cough access to an ebook is a valid one, if made with awareness for what exactly that means. I think most people miss that though, because they think that they bought something instead of rented it. Hell, it's usually not even much cheaper than getting the dead-tree version. I have a paper book being shipped to me right now, and I'll have to wait a week. The only electronic version was the Kindle though, and fuck that noise.

brandall10 2y ago

This seems like an isolated case where an illegitimate provider committed fraud in the early days of the program. Amazon refunded and surely readers were able to purchase a valid copy not much later. Are there any examples where legitimately purchased licenses were made unavailable?

trescenzi 2y ago
Sony has recently been caught up in a few things like this. The Discovery shows being the biggest example I’m aware of. It’s definitively not an isolated thing. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/06/technology/sony-playstation-discovery-shows-removal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/06/technology/sony-playstati...
gaius_baltar 2y ago
> Are there any examples where legitimately purchased licenses were made unavailable? From customers point of view, these purchases were legitimate. But the important point is that they did it in the past and only the right balance between bad PR and expected profits will prevent them from doing again.
- LiamPowell 2y ago
  What profits are you referring to given that they refunded everyone?
fc417fc802 2y ago
> legitimately purchased licenses Don't confuse an illegitimately purchased license with a legitimately purchased illegitimate license. This is the trouble with "licenses" instead of "items". If I purchase a bootleg book from a physical shop it's not getting clawed back later. The supplier might get in trouble, the physical shop might as well, but nothing is happening to the physical good that I purchased.
- brandall10 2y ago
  Still, this is an extreme, seemingly one-off outlier. There's nothing shady or below board about their actions. They made a mistake and made all parties whole. There are plenty other reasons to argue against DRM, but I'd argue the chance this one weakens the argument.
  - perryizgr8 2y ago
    > made all parties whole Not really. They went overboard. They reached into devices owned by their customers and deleted books without permission. That was absolutely outside of normal. Imagine amazon selling you a physical book and later sneaking into your house to take it back when they find out the seller had pirated them.
  - RHSeeger 2y ago
    It's not about shady or below board. It's about the fact that they can, at their choice, remove books from people that have paid for them. Since they have this power, and can (effectively) use it without repercussions, it's now just a question of under what circumstances are the people in charge willing to use it. It's the same as when government agencies are given broad, sweeping powers with the explanation of "it makes it easier to do the right thing, and they won't use it to do the wrong thing". Only, the person that gets to decide what it gets used for can change. Then suddenly, they _are_ willing to use it for the wrong thing.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
tlavoie 2y ago
The point wasn't that they sold something they weren't supposed to, but that they felt it reasonable to "un-sell" something after someone has received it. It showed everyone that electronic purchases can be yoinked away at the first whiff of controversy. Unlike all the copycat, fraudulent crap they continue to sell in physical form to this day.
- Mistletoe 2y ago
  “Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.” ― George Orwell, 1984
reaperducer 2y ago
Are there any examples where legitimately purchased licenses were made unavailable? Not Amazon, but yes: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47810367 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47810367
like_any_other 2y ago
> an illegitimate provider committed fraud If an illegitimate provider commits fraud with a physical book, a megacorporation does not hire extra-legal mercenaries to break into my house, steal my copy, and leave cash equal to its price in its place. But this is treated differently just because Amazon manufactured the Kindle (but no longer owns it - they sold it to you, it's not theirs anymore). I suppose if Amazon had built apartments, would we expect them to keep master keys to all the doors, so they can confiscate any of our possessions whose licensing has expired?
- smegger001 2y ago
  >If an illegitimate provider commits fraud with a physical book, a megacorporation does not hire extra-legal mercenaries to break into my house, steal my copy, and leave cash equal to its price in its place. Except when they do. Hasbro/Wizards of the coast will send Pinkertons (old school corporate "security" firms of the break some kneecaps variety) after you if are inadvertently sent one of their products early by their distributor. They will barge into your home threaten you and take your things and leave not giving you compensation.
  - like_any_other 2y ago
    In that case, we, too, are allowed to unilaterally determine when a corporation has wronged us, and seek out our own restitution, without involving the police or the courts.
    - smegger001 2y ago
      A Mr Luigi Mangione tried that recently it started a multi-state manhunt and shows every sign of being a sham trial and having predetermined sentence. They started with media events where swat team with drawn assault rifles frog march him into court with the NYC mayor in the lead and since been found to have been hiding evidence from his legal defense.
  - account42 2y ago
    Yes, that is illegal. What Amazon did should be illegal too.
pm3003 2y ago
Naver Webtoons does that, though I'm sure it doesn't fall into the category of selling ebooks and is probably well crafted on the legal side. You buy in-app credits, you use them to access series and episodes and download them (you download them in a way that you cannot easily save/copy them). Access is typically revoked a few months later or upon series end, and the expiration of your access rights is not announced. These kinds of practices are why everyone is wary of DRM & Co.
raudette 2y ago
When Microsoft shut down its eBook store, you could no longer read the eBooks you purchased. They did refund their customers. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47810367 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47810367 Also, there are examples where a company arbitrarily changes its DRM - like when Microsoft launched its Zune media player, it wouldn't play their own "Plays For Sure" DRM music - they just dropped support. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure

userbinator 2y ago

That was very memorable. Of all the books it could happen to, it had to be that one.

wirthjason 2y ago
After I downloaded Fahrenheit 451 my hard drive caught fire.
- 867-5309 2y ago
  shortly after pirating Three Body Problem my homicide count tripled
  - goatlover 2y ago
    That's not what the countdown only you can see, the blinking stars at night, or the hyper realistic VR game with no power source meant ...
  - hardlianotion 2y ago
    wot
  - LocalH 2y ago
    Mine tripled too, and I've never read or watched it. Good thing it was zero to start with
- MollyRealized 2y ago
  I downloaded 2001 and I'm sorry Dave I can't finish this comment
dotancohen 2y ago
Another memorable - and scarily relevant - example was Disney changing the content of some purchased video content. I think it was a Star Wars spinoff, where a user noticed something amiss and the fix was retroactively edited into already-purchased content. That is _exactly_ the type of rewriting the past that 1984 warned us about. This could be - or is - an ultimate form of gaslighting. If it's not on your hard drive, you can never be sure that what you're seeing today is what you saw yesteryear.

BrenBarn 2y ago

It's not so much that ownership is fickle as that it's become harder and harder to gain ownership of things.

wesapien 2y ago
The longer we stay in this time line capitalism starts to look like feudalism
tlavoie 2y ago
I don't know, is it? I mean, it's often not the convenient choice, but there is still choice. The choice to "license" cough access to an ebook is a valid one, if made with awareness for what exactly that means. I think most people miss that though, because they think that they bought something instead of rented it. Hell, it's usually not even much cheaper than getting the dead-tree version. I have a paper book being shipped to me right now, and I'll have to wait a week. The only electronic version was the Kindle though, and fuck that noise.