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> Suppose this is true. Then you replace that portion of the housing stock with new construction, and what problem is there? The problem is only if you're const

> Suppose this is true. Then you replace that portion of the housing stock with new construction, and what problem is there? The problem is only if you're constrained from doing that. The problem is, as it can be observed in Budapest for example, that the new constructions focus on flats suitable for single people, or the short term renters, or the luxury segment, and the middle segment of the market is pretty much non-existent. Flats suitable for families are not being built, in the sizes and number of rooms where it would be useful you only have condos with rooftop terraces and such thins that unnecessarily inflate the prices.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago
The construction will focus on whatever is in demand. Moreover, expensive luxury units often make more family units available, because then the new occupants of those luxury units vacate the existing family units they'd have otherwise occupied.
- thfuran 2y ago
  No, it'll focus on whatever's expected to be most profitable, which is not necessarily the same thing.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    The price they can sell the unit for is determined by demand. Profit is then the difference between that and their costs. But selling units with lower demand would then only be more profitable if those units also had lower construction costs. Which isn't really consistent with the practice of making luxury units.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- BrenBarn 2y ago
  Unless they keep those vacated units to rent them out on AirBnB.
  - epistasis 2y ago
    If you didn't build those units, they would be taking existing units for that rather than the new units, right?
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      And if they use those units for that then the demand for new units from people who want to live in them will still exist and it will continue to be profitable to build even more units.
- fodkodrasz 2y ago
  No, at least not in the sense as what is in demand by the population, they focus on what is in demand by the investors. All new construction projects advertise themselves either as luxury or as investments. The fact that hosing is usable as investment is what has ruined the market, and the demographics of the west.
SR2Z 2y ago
The middle segment of the market 10 years from now is the same as the high end segment today. Obviously when people construct buildings, they put in the nicest viable finishes and decor. No profit-seeking entity goes through all the effort of raising a structure only to finish it off with linoleum and shitty cabinets. The lack of housing for families is a consequence of 4 roommates preferring cheaper rent in a 4bd than to rent 4 singles.
- pineaux 2y ago
  Thats not true. Social housing does exactly that.
  - SR2Z 2y ago
    The difference between "social housing" and "luxury housing" is literally whether or not anyone is making a profit on it. A new apartment tends to be nice regardless of how its construction was funded. In places where social housing works, the government builds enough new, shiny apartment buildings to keep the market rent low. Obviously, the construction of apartment buildings MUST FIRST BE EASY AND LEGAL for the government to do this.
    - wongarsu 2y ago
      It appears to me like we did manage to build from-scratch cheap housing at a profit in the 50s-80s in Europe. The key were cheap, dense, ~5 story prefabricated buildings, with some greenery around them. What is now known as commie blocks in the anglosphere. Turns out that when you build something that's not particularly nice when it's new it becomes unattractive as it ages, which creates unattractive high-crime neighborhoods. Great to solve housing, but very unattractive for anyone else in the area. We basically stopped building them
      - Retric 2y ago
        You can maintain that housing just fine, the market generally chose not to. Further it’s not housing that creates poverty, and thus crime ridden neighborhoods. Somewhere is going to be relatively poor and thus both poorly maintained and crime ridden. Cities have seen the exact same building go through cycles of poverty to prosperity and back.
epistasis 2y ago
So what happens if you don't build those flats suitable for single people. Where are they supposed to go? Are not worthy of housing? I really don't understand what the problem is.
- fodkodrasz 2y ago
  Let's flip the question? What happens when you don't build housing suitable for families? Yes, demographic crisis. A flat suitable for a family is suitable for single people living together (see american sitcoms), but the opposite is not.
  - epistasis 2y ago
    The proposal seems to be to not build anything, because it's a problem if apartments for single people are built. I think we all also agree that it's a problem if housing for families is not built. But the route to more housing is rarely through problematizing other types of housing.
    - fodkodrasz 2y ago
      The proposal is definitely not that. The route to more housing for locals is definitely by "problematizing" empty flats build for store of wealth by foreign investors, that I see locally.
thatfrenchguy 2y ago
> Flats suitable for families are not being built FWIW this is also very true in the United States, layouts of new units are generally completely unsuitable for families and that's why upper middle class but not rich enough folks in San Francisco tend to rent/buy condos in older buildings. Different problem than in France I guess, where the square meterage is just too low, here in the US it's just wasted.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  US flats generally have a lot more due to different social standards; the in-unit washer/dryer is not common globally, for example. Or apartments with double vanity bathrooms. The families thing is also because all other things being equal, more bedrooms will lower the price per sq ft of a unit due to weaker demand; and right now studio and one-bedroom demand is so high that you could reasonably build a building full of them and generate profits.
Tiktaalik 2y ago
I recognize this is enormously frustrating for people with families, but the reason this is happening is because there's a shortage of housing for single people, and so while there is demand from families, it makes more sense for builders to meet the unsatisfied demand for single people first. We have more demand for single apartments than ever before because of changing household size dynamics. People are staying single longer and also living longer and thus more likely to become widowed. The only way out of this problem is to enable more building of housing to more balance the demand of single unit apts with larger unit apartments.
- epistasis 2y ago
  It's also worth pointing out in crowded cities like San Francisco that large numbers of single people band together as roommates and rent family sized units in order to afford rent, and due to a general shortage overall. When those single individuals are able to move out into a smaller apartment, it starts freeing up the shared family size units. Banning single units is extremely counterproductive and overall raises prices for families in situations like these.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> the luxury segment, and the middle segment of the market is pretty much non-existent Why is so little getting built [1]? [1] https://www.property-forum.eu/news/housing-construction-close-to-decade-low-in-hungary/19595 https://www.property-forum.eu/news/housing-construction-clos...

AnthonyMouse 2y ago

The construction will focus on whatever is in demand. Moreover, expensive luxury units often make more family units available, because then the new occupants of those luxury units vacate the existing family units they'd have otherwise occupied.

thfuran 2y ago
No, it'll focus on whatever's expected to be most profitable, which is not necessarily the same thing.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  The price they can sell the unit for is determined by demand. Profit is then the difference between that and their costs. But selling units with lower demand would then only be more profitable if those units also had lower construction costs. Which isn't really consistent with the practice of making luxury units.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
BrenBarn 2y ago
Unless they keep those vacated units to rent them out on AirBnB.
- epistasis 2y ago
  If you didn't build those units, they would be taking existing units for that rather than the new units, right?
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    And if they use those units for that then the demand for new units from people who want to live in them will still exist and it will continue to be profitable to build even more units.
fodkodrasz 2y ago
No, at least not in the sense as what is in demand by the population, they focus on what is in demand by the investors. All new construction projects advertise themselves either as luxury or as investments. The fact that hosing is usable as investment is what has ruined the market, and the demographics of the west.

SR2Z 2y ago

The middle segment of the market 10 years from now is the same as the high end segment today. Obviously when people construct buildings, they put in the nicest viable finishes and decor. No profit-seeking entity goes through all the effort of raising a structure only to finish it off with linoleum and shitty cabinets. The lack of housing for families is a consequence of 4 roommates preferring cheaper rent in a 4bd than to rent 4 singles.

pineaux 2y ago
Thats not true. Social housing does exactly that.
- SR2Z 2y ago
  The difference between "social housing" and "luxury housing" is literally whether or not anyone is making a profit on it. A new apartment tends to be nice regardless of how its construction was funded. In places where social housing works, the government builds enough new, shiny apartment buildings to keep the market rent low. Obviously, the construction of apartment buildings MUST FIRST BE EASY AND LEGAL for the government to do this.
  - wongarsu 2y ago
    It appears to me like we did manage to build from-scratch cheap housing at a profit in the 50s-80s in Europe. The key were cheap, dense, ~5 story prefabricated buildings, with some greenery around them. What is now known as commie blocks in the anglosphere. Turns out that when you build something that's not particularly nice when it's new it becomes unattractive as it ages, which creates unattractive high-crime neighborhoods. Great to solve housing, but very unattractive for anyone else in the area. We basically stopped building them
    - Retric 2y ago
      You can maintain that housing just fine, the market generally chose not to. Further it’s not housing that creates poverty, and thus crime ridden neighborhoods. Somewhere is going to be relatively poor and thus both poorly maintained and crime ridden. Cities have seen the exact same building go through cycles of poverty to prosperity and back.

epistasis 2y ago

So what happens if you don't build those flats suitable for single people. Where are they supposed to go? Are not worthy of housing? I really don't understand what the problem is.

fodkodrasz 2y ago
Let's flip the question? What happens when you don't build housing suitable for families? Yes, demographic crisis. A flat suitable for a family is suitable for single people living together (see american sitcoms), but the opposite is not.
- epistasis 2y ago
  The proposal seems to be to not build anything, because it's a problem if apartments for single people are built. I think we all also agree that it's a problem if housing for families is not built. But the route to more housing is rarely through problematizing other types of housing.
  - fodkodrasz 2y ago
    The proposal is definitely not that. The route to more housing for locals is definitely by "problematizing" empty flats build for store of wealth by foreign investors, that I see locally.

thatfrenchguy 2y ago

> Flats suitable for families are not being built FWIW this is also very true in the United States, layouts of new units are generally completely unsuitable for families and that's why upper middle class but not rich enough folks in San Francisco tend to rent/buy condos in older buildings. Different problem than in France I guess, where the square meterage is just too low, here in the US it's just wasted.

bobthepanda 2y ago
US flats generally have a lot more due to different social standards; the in-unit washer/dryer is not common globally, for example. Or apartments with double vanity bathrooms. The families thing is also because all other things being equal, more bedrooms will lower the price per sq ft of a unit due to weaker demand; and right now studio and one-bedroom demand is so high that you could reasonably build a building full of them and generate profits.

Tiktaalik 2y ago

I recognize this is enormously frustrating for people with families, but the reason this is happening is because there's a shortage of housing for single people, and so while there is demand from families, it makes more sense for builders to meet the unsatisfied demand for single people first. We have more demand for single apartments than ever before because of changing household size dynamics. People are staying single longer and also living longer and thus more likely to become widowed. The only way out of this problem is to enable more building of housing to more balance the demand of single unit apts with larger unit apartments.

epistasis 2y ago
It's also worth pointing out in crowded cities like San Francisco that large numbers of single people band together as roommates and rent family sized units in order to afford rent, and due to a general shortage overall. When those single individuals are able to move out into a smaller apartment, it starts freeing up the shared family size units. Banning single units is extremely counterproductive and overall raises prices for families in situations like these.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> the luxury segment, and the middle segment of the market is pretty much non-existent Why is so little getting built [1]? [1] https://www.property-forum.eu/news/housing-construction-close-to-decade-low-in-hungary/19595 https://www.property-forum.eu/news/housing-construction-clos...