4 ms·

I’m gonna punt on the question of where the line is for hostile actions and use some past legal justification of “I know it when I see it” and I see it clearly

I’m gonna punt on the question of where the line is for hostile actions and use some past legal justification of “I know it when I see it” and I see it clearly here. The second part is the more interesting question to me: Appropriate reactions would seem to include: - finding a new doctor/practice/provider. Super hard in practice as they seem to be geographical monopolies a la the cable networks - providing appropriately hostile feedback to your current doctors — but this is likely only to garner empathy as the docs have little say over this - stop using smartphones and claim hardship — not sure how this would pan out. Probably not well? - channeling Luigi and murdering the people responsible for our ongoing dystopia Seriously what other options are there? You can either complain to the ether and it goes nowhere. Or you can take up violence and it still likely goes nowhere and you fuck up your life. This is why so many people are content to let the world burn. It ain’t for us anymore anyway.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
Is stupidity instead of hardship a legally valid claim? Are cognitively disabled people, unable to operate a smartphone, a protected class?
- Henchman21 2y ago
  If the entire world requires smartphones to take part and you are unable to use a smartphone you deserve some protection, yes. If you see other options I’d be happy to hear them?
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
    My question is can I sue based on that?
    - Henchman21 2y ago
      If you’re a protected class I would assume yes. IANAL this is not legal advice and this is not a real situation anyway
      - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
        That's my question, am I a protected class for not being able to operate a smartphone? I think many of a typical doctor's constituency fall into that category.
        bee_rider 2y ago
        I don’t think “person who is unable to operate a cellphone” is a protected class. There might be some overlap between those people and people in other protected classes. But it is hard to say just based on a hypothetical, right?
        mrandish 2y ago
        > a typical doctor's constituency fall into that category. My 95 year-old mother can't use apps on her iphone because she can't figure out the navigation and various modes. Because of this her phone usage is limited to answering incoming calls, making calls to the six icons we've preset on her home screen, receiving texts and replying to the last text she received (because it's still on the screen). Anything else is iffy. And she's not cognitively impaired. She's actually quite sharp for her age and lives on her own within an assisted care community.
        mapt 2y ago
        No. You're not. Blind people are. At least, insofar as we still have the ADA. One thing these companies are doing is charging blind people extra. Phrase it that way and you can maybe move some policy levers.
- meristohm 2y ago
  They are protected if we collectively-enough (laws, or culture, religion, ethics, or...?) agree to provide equitable access to people with disabilities. Human rights are made up (the local deer that spent the night in the woods near where I spend the night have no rights, they just exist in a mix of cooperation, reciprocity, and some competition. Actually, I don't know if they afford each other rights in the way we do that. Likewise, I don't know if deer focus on "productivity" as much as so many of us do...), and for good reasons (?). I wonder if rights were codified back when we were far less numerous and living so much closer to the land, amidst so much more abundant life.
- bryanrasmussen 2y ago
  wcag has provisions regarding cognitive issues, I have been thinking about writing an article arguing that dark patterns being liable under accessibility laws - but have not really shopped it around. Of course one thing is nobody wants to sue someone because they don't understand something, because they think it means arguing they are stupid.
  - joquarky 2y ago
    On a similar note, I think the inability to pause all animations on a website seems like a kind of WCAG violation as well.
  - dleink 2y ago
    If anyone needs a test case, I consider myself a reasonably intelligent human who is absolutely too stupid to use modern technology and would be glad to proclaim that to a court. (executive function, working memory issues. latency is a killer for me.)
throwawayqqq11 2y ago
You have forgotten sabotage or whistle blowing. If i would work for such a crappy manager, i would let upper management know. Feeling helpless is the moment you loose.
1propionyl 2y ago
This is all downstream of consolidation of ownership in private equity of clinics, community health centers, emergency rooms, veterinarians offices, end-of-life care facilities, etc. This is what happens when you let the bean counters and MBAs a quarter turn around the world with no on-the-ground experience or institutional knowledge make decisions from their spreadsheets to "optimize out inefficiencies". Let's call it what it is: strip mining.
- creer 2y ago
  > downstream of consolidation of ownership No, if anything, people buying and running multiple offices are exactly in the business of optimizing the last few percentage points of efficiency and that include amortizing better software across all these offices to make them run with fewer humans in the loop. Causing more people to talk to more humans is NOT what they do. The issue is lack of care, incompetence, stupidity - exactly the things that will get you fired from these operations. Eventually. The problem is "eventually". Unfortunately it will take too long for that to happen, compared to the rest of our lives.
kortilla 2y ago
VOTE MOTHERFUCKER Local government politics work. State politics even kinda work. The fact that murder is on your list but not voting is mind boggling.
- Henchman21 2y ago
  I vote. I am 50. I have voted in every election I was able to. In my life my preferred candidate has won exactly twice: Obama’s second term and Biden’s first. This includes local, state elections, and national. To quote George Carlin: “If voting mattered, they wouldn’t let us do it”. Trump lost in 2024 but took the win because his cronies disqualified enough voters in enough states to win. So, please, spare me. We’re up to violence already. You’re just well behind the times unfortunately.
  - gxs 2y ago
    Don’t mean to be antagonistic here, but do you have a source for the claim that trump took the win? Would be really curious to see how this could be proven or at the very least convincingly induced.
    - Henchman21 2y ago
      Go look for how many ballots were disqualified in the swing states?
      - TheDong 2y ago
        I googled around, but I couldn't find an authoritative source showing either the numbers disqualified, the reasons, and that those ballots were majority not-trump ballots. Can you provide a source for that data for a specific swing state of your choice?
  - wat10000 2y ago
    Contra Carlin, if voting didn’t matter they wouldn’t be putting so much effort into making it harder.
autoexec 2y ago
> stop using smartphones and claim hardship — not sure how this would pan out. This is basically what I do now. When someone tells me to install their app or give them my cell phone number I tell them that I don't have a cell phone. Sometimes I do it while holding a cell phone in my hand. I've told employers that if they make using an app a requirement they'll need to buy me a cell phone. If people really push on why I won't use an app I'll tell them all about how my buying a phone doesn't make me the owner of one since multiple people at multiple companies have privileged access to the device I paid for far beyond my own level of access which enables them to access/add/remove/modify files and settings at any time and for any reason without my permission or even without making me aware that they've done it. Why would I use a system controlled by an unknown number of others who are only interested in enriching themselves to keep highly personal information like my medical history or banking information? Cell phones are inherently insecure and adversarial devices designed to collect and leak our private information while stealing our attention.
creer 2y ago
- Call the office and ask them to read the message that they couldn't be bothered to put in regular email. - Switch to paper mail notices (Here, health insurance "improving" their web site - again - to a useless two-factor auth that loops indefinitely.)

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago

Is stupidity instead of hardship a legally valid claim? Are cognitively disabled people, unable to operate a smartphone, a protected class?

Henchman21 2y ago
If the entire world requires smartphones to take part and you are unable to use a smartphone you deserve some protection, yes. If you see other options I’d be happy to hear them?
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
  My question is can I sue based on that?
  - Henchman21 2y ago
    If you’re a protected class I would assume yes. IANAL this is not legal advice and this is not a real situation anyway
    - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
      That's my question, am I a protected class for not being able to operate a smartphone? I think many of a typical doctor's constituency fall into that category.
      - bee_rider 2y ago
        I don’t think “person who is unable to operate a cellphone” is a protected class. There might be some overlap between those people and people in other protected classes. But it is hard to say just based on a hypothetical, right?
      - mrandish 2y ago
        > a typical doctor's constituency fall into that category. My 95 year-old mother can't use apps on her iphone because she can't figure out the navigation and various modes. Because of this her phone usage is limited to answering incoming calls, making calls to the six icons we've preset on her home screen, receiving texts and replying to the last text she received (because it's still on the screen). Anything else is iffy. And she's not cognitively impaired. She's actually quite sharp for her age and lives on her own within an assisted care community.
      - mapt 2y ago
        No. You're not. Blind people are. At least, insofar as we still have the ADA. One thing these companies are doing is charging blind people extra. Phrase it that way and you can maybe move some policy levers.
meristohm 2y ago
They are protected if we collectively-enough (laws, or culture, religion, ethics, or...?) agree to provide equitable access to people with disabilities. Human rights are made up (the local deer that spent the night in the woods near where I spend the night have no rights, they just exist in a mix of cooperation, reciprocity, and some competition. Actually, I don't know if they afford each other rights in the way we do that. Likewise, I don't know if deer focus on "productivity" as much as so many of us do...), and for good reasons (?). I wonder if rights were codified back when we were far less numerous and living so much closer to the land, amidst so much more abundant life.
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
wcag has provisions regarding cognitive issues, I have been thinking about writing an article arguing that dark patterns being liable under accessibility laws - but have not really shopped it around. Of course one thing is nobody wants to sue someone because they don't understand something, because they think it means arguing they are stupid.
- joquarky 2y ago
  On a similar note, I think the inability to pause all animations on a website seems like a kind of WCAG violation as well.
- dleink 2y ago
  If anyone needs a test case, I consider myself a reasonably intelligent human who is absolutely too stupid to use modern technology and would be glad to proclaim that to a court. (executive function, working memory issues. latency is a killer for me.)

throwawayqqq11 2y ago

You have forgotten sabotage or whistle blowing. If i would work for such a crappy manager, i would let upper management know. Feeling helpless is the moment you loose.

1propionyl 2y ago

This is all downstream of consolidation of ownership in private equity of clinics, community health centers, emergency rooms, veterinarians offices, end-of-life care facilities, etc. This is what happens when you let the bean counters and MBAs a quarter turn around the world with no on-the-ground experience or institutional knowledge make decisions from their spreadsheets to "optimize out inefficiencies". Let's call it what it is: strip mining.

creer 2y ago
> downstream of consolidation of ownership No, if anything, people buying and running multiple offices are exactly in the business of optimizing the last few percentage points of efficiency and that include amortizing better software across all these offices to make them run with fewer humans in the loop. Causing more people to talk to more humans is NOT what they do. The issue is lack of care, incompetence, stupidity - exactly the things that will get you fired from these operations. Eventually. The problem is "eventually". Unfortunately it will take too long for that to happen, compared to the rest of our lives.

kortilla 2y ago

VOTE MOTHERFUCKER Local government politics work. State politics even kinda work. The fact that murder is on your list but not voting is mind boggling.

Henchman21 2y ago
I vote. I am 50. I have voted in every election I was able to. In my life my preferred candidate has won exactly twice: Obama’s second term and Biden’s first. This includes local, state elections, and national. To quote George Carlin: “If voting mattered, they wouldn’t let us do it”. Trump lost in 2024 but took the win because his cronies disqualified enough voters in enough states to win. So, please, spare me. We’re up to violence already. You’re just well behind the times unfortunately.
- gxs 2y ago
  Don’t mean to be antagonistic here, but do you have a source for the claim that trump took the win? Would be really curious to see how this could be proven or at the very least convincingly induced.
  - Henchman21 2y ago
    Go look for how many ballots were disqualified in the swing states?
    - TheDong 2y ago
      I googled around, but I couldn't find an authoritative source showing either the numbers disqualified, the reasons, and that those ballots were majority not-trump ballots. Can you provide a source for that data for a specific swing state of your choice?
- wat10000 2y ago
  Contra Carlin, if voting didn’t matter they wouldn’t be putting so much effort into making it harder.

autoexec 2y ago

> stop using smartphones and claim hardship — not sure how this would pan out. This is basically what I do now. When someone tells me to install their app or give them my cell phone number I tell them that I don't have a cell phone. Sometimes I do it while holding a cell phone in my hand. I've told employers that if they make using an app a requirement they'll need to buy me a cell phone. If people really push on why I won't use an app I'll tell them all about how my buying a phone doesn't make me the owner of one since multiple people at multiple companies have privileged access to the device I paid for far beyond my own level of access which enables them to access/add/remove/modify files and settings at any time and for any reason without my permission or even without making me aware that they've done it. Why would I use a system controlled by an unknown number of others who are only interested in enriching themselves to keep highly personal information like my medical history or banking information? Cell phones are inherently insecure and adversarial devices designed to collect and leak our private information while stealing our attention.

creer 2y ago

- Call the office and ask them to read the message that they couldn't be bothered to put in regular email. - Switch to paper mail notices (Here, health insurance "improving" their web site - again - to a useless two-factor auth that loops indefinitely.)