5 ms·

It's funny how people in this thread keep saying "well if you're going to complain about people being penalized for not using apps, you might as well complain a

It's funny how people in this thread keep saying "well if you're going to complain about people being penalized for not using apps, you might as well complain about people being penalized for not using telephones/cars/internet"... and yes, I am going to complain about all of those things. I imagine that many or most homeless people don't have reliable access to any of the above. I have an anxiety disorder that makes it hard for me to drive or talk on the phone, and I'm sure there are many people with more extreme conditions for whom it's impossible. There are people like Richard Stallman and members of certain religious communities who have strong moral objections to using certain technologies. Society should accommodate all sorts of people and all sorts of ways of living.

cbozeman 2y ago
[flagged]
- lsecondario 2y ago
  > Society is about conforming. This is an expression of personal preference. It is a common preference but not universal.
  - Neonlicht 2y ago
    Society is what people invented so that different people can live together. If you do not conform you're banished to jail.
    - cbozeman 2y ago
      [flagged]
- vladms 2y ago
  > I don't like paying taxes. If we replace "taxes" with "paying for an army, paying for police, etc." than the above statement seems strange. I can understand "I don't like what society choose to build (with the taxes)", but some things can't be let to the free market. > I have to go do the fucking IRS's job That's a society choice. I have no experience with IRS, but other countries have tax systems that are much more automatic (come prefilled with most info for example). But taxes are maybe a bit higher (because if you don't do the job, someone needs to maintain the systems that allow the automation).
- malfist 2y ago
  Have some empathy for your fellow humans. Life is better for everyone, you included, when you give people some grace and don't assume bad intentions
- sensanaty 2y ago
  The only reason you have to do the IRS' job is because the "free market" you love so much spends obscene amounts of money buying out your government and making sure people have to use their products in order to not go insane filing their taxes. In most countries filing taxes is a painless process that takes 5 minutes and is more or less completely automated for you.
vladms 2y ago
Sorry to hear about your condition, and while I think society can decide to accommodate to some conditions, I disagree with that idea that it "should accommodate". It is a common decision, and sometimes the answer will be "no, we don't accommodate for that, sorry". In the end, everything has a cost (being it effort, resources, time, etc.). Regarding the article, there are many cheap smartphones (<100eur) so I wonder if it isn't just fear of the new that stops people using them. I keep a smartphone around 4-5 years and my 10 year old phone still works ok. If people just don't want to change or learn new things, I would found that much more worrying...
- miltonlost 2y ago
  In your world, people in wheelchairs would be housebound. But I guess we shouldn't accommodate them by requiring wheelchair ramps or curb cut-outs. They are lesser than us.
  - lezojeda 2y ago
    [dead]
  - vladms 2y ago
    The world is not what you or me want is what you can convince enough people to do. In the country were I choose to pay taxes, people in wheelchairs are well accommodated. But you know what that also means? That the same resources used for the ramps are not used to help someone that maybe starves to death somewhere else. I can't say I know which of the two I would choose, but I will not imply that the ones making a choice think "some are lesser than us". Probably you will say "we can do both", "why choose", or something similar. But practically, all resources I know seem to be finite (time, energy, people). If you have infinite resources that I am not aware of, please fix all the problems.
- jmholla 2y ago
  > Sorry to hear about your condition, and while I think society can decide to accommodate to some conditions, I disagree with that idea that it "should accommodate". It is a common decision, and sometimes the answer will be "no, we don't accommodate for that, sorry". In the end, everything has a cost (being it effort, resources, time, etc.). This falls apart when you realize this isn't just a consistent percentage of the population. It's a large portion of the population at different portions of their lives. It's something like 90% of adults will be disabled in their lives. How many times have you lost your phone, or broken it without an immediately available backup?
nicbou 2y ago
Immigrants are often left out for various reasons, such as not having the right documents, having an unsupported kind of passport, not having an address they can register as their home, not having an app store account in the right country, not having a local payment method, and a variety of other issues.
- 13_9_7_7_5_18 2y ago
  [dead]
- golemiprague 2y ago
  [dead]
kevincox 2y ago
IMHO at some point it makes sense to start requiring the internet, it makes a lot of things easier. But when we do that we need to ensure that everyone is supported. For example ensuring that people have ready internet access at public libraries. Providing government-provided email inboxes for receiving government communication (lots of homeless people get locked out of regular free mail providers). Train support staff at these libraries (or whatever institution provides these services) to help people who need assistance though the government processes, including doing it on their behalf when required.
Terr_ 2y ago
To quote something from a favorite fiction-series, where someone has traveled to a relatively backwards planet: > "Poor?" said Cordelia, bewildered. "No electricity? How can it be on the comm network?" > "It's not, of course," answered Vorkosigan. > "Then how can anybody get their schooling?" > "They don't." > Cordelia stared. "I don't understand. How do they get their jobs?" > "A few escape to the Service. The rest prey on each other, mostly." Vorkosigan regarded her face uneasily. "Have you no poverty on Beta Colony?" > "Poverty? Well, some people have more money than others, of course, but... no comconsoles?" > Vorkosigan was diverted from his interrogation. "Is not owning a comconsole the lowest standard of living you can imagine?" he said in wonder. > "It's the first article in the constitution. 'Access to information shall not be abridged.' " -- Shards of Honor (1986) by Lois McMaster Bujold In the 39 years since this was published, I would have hoped our real society would have advanced a bit more in that direction.
- theragra 2y ago
  Thanks, a bit of nostalgy from my youth. I read it in Russian, in 200x, though
  - falcor84 2y ago
    It took me a short while to understand that "200x" probably means a year between [2000,2010), and not that you listened to it at a speed of 20000%
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> I imagine that many or most homeless people don't have reliable access to any of the above. In the US there is a specific government program called "Lifeline" that provides cell phone service to low income people, https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-consumers https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-cons... (whether it gets DOGEd remains to be seen...) And where I live there are a bunch of programs that provide free cell phones to homeless people. It's not a panacea because lots of homeless people have other problems that make it difficult to keep a cell phone and not lose it. But that's really a separate issue - not having access is really not much of a barrier for the homeless, at least in the US.
- stonogo 2y ago
  You cannot receive Lifeline benefits without an address in most states.
HDThoreaun 2y ago
[flagged]
- MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
  For me, it's less about lifestyle choices, and more about managing failure domains. If a person is kicked off their ISP/ cell carrier due to a private dispute with them, why should their entire life have to grind to a screeching halt in every other area? It's maddening how little recourse there is and how difficult it can be if you lose both your phone and number, and I vehemently disagree that we should be ok with any of it.

cbozeman 2y ago

[flagged]

lsecondario 2y ago
> Society is about conforming. This is an expression of personal preference. It is a common preference but not universal.
- Neonlicht 2y ago
  Society is what people invented so that different people can live together. If you do not conform you're banished to jail.
  - cbozeman 2y ago
    [flagged]
vladms 2y ago
> I don't like paying taxes. If we replace "taxes" with "paying for an army, paying for police, etc." than the above statement seems strange. I can understand "I don't like what society choose to build (with the taxes)", but some things can't be let to the free market. > I have to go do the fucking IRS's job That's a society choice. I have no experience with IRS, but other countries have tax systems that are much more automatic (come prefilled with most info for example). But taxes are maybe a bit higher (because if you don't do the job, someone needs to maintain the systems that allow the automation).
malfist 2y ago
Have some empathy for your fellow humans. Life is better for everyone, you included, when you give people some grace and don't assume bad intentions
sensanaty 2y ago
The only reason you have to do the IRS' job is because the "free market" you love so much spends obscene amounts of money buying out your government and making sure people have to use their products in order to not go insane filing their taxes. In most countries filing taxes is a painless process that takes 5 minutes and is more or less completely automated for you.

vladms 2y ago

Sorry to hear about your condition, and while I think society can decide to accommodate to some conditions, I disagree with that idea that it "should accommodate". It is a common decision, and sometimes the answer will be "no, we don't accommodate for that, sorry". In the end, everything has a cost (being it effort, resources, time, etc.). Regarding the article, there are many cheap smartphones (<100eur) so I wonder if it isn't just fear of the new that stops people using them. I keep a smartphone around 4-5 years and my 10 year old phone still works ok. If people just don't want to change or learn new things, I would found that much more worrying...

miltonlost 2y ago
In your world, people in wheelchairs would be housebound. But I guess we shouldn't accommodate them by requiring wheelchair ramps or curb cut-outs. They are lesser than us.
- lezojeda 2y ago
  [dead]
- vladms 2y ago
  The world is not what you or me want is what you can convince enough people to do. In the country were I choose to pay taxes, people in wheelchairs are well accommodated. But you know what that also means? That the same resources used for the ramps are not used to help someone that maybe starves to death somewhere else. I can't say I know which of the two I would choose, but I will not imply that the ones making a choice think "some are lesser than us". Probably you will say "we can do both", "why choose", or something similar. But practically, all resources I know seem to be finite (time, energy, people). If you have infinite resources that I am not aware of, please fix all the problems.
jmholla 2y ago
> Sorry to hear about your condition, and while I think society can decide to accommodate to some conditions, I disagree with that idea that it "should accommodate". It is a common decision, and sometimes the answer will be "no, we don't accommodate for that, sorry". In the end, everything has a cost (being it effort, resources, time, etc.). This falls apart when you realize this isn't just a consistent percentage of the population. It's a large portion of the population at different portions of their lives. It's something like 90% of adults will be disabled in their lives. How many times have you lost your phone, or broken it without an immediately available backup?

nicbou 2y ago

Immigrants are often left out for various reasons, such as not having the right documents, having an unsupported kind of passport, not having an address they can register as their home, not having an app store account in the right country, not having a local payment method, and a variety of other issues.

13_9_7_7_5_18 2y ago
[dead]
golemiprague 2y ago
[dead]

kevincox 2y ago

IMHO at some point it makes sense to start requiring the internet, it makes a lot of things easier. But when we do that we need to ensure that everyone is supported. For example ensuring that people have ready internet access at public libraries. Providing government-provided email inboxes for receiving government communication (lots of homeless people get locked out of regular free mail providers). Train support staff at these libraries (or whatever institution provides these services) to help people who need assistance though the government processes, including doing it on their behalf when required.

Terr_ 2y ago

To quote something from a favorite fiction-series, where someone has traveled to a relatively backwards planet: > "Poor?" said Cordelia, bewildered. "No electricity? How can it be on the comm network?" > "It's not, of course," answered Vorkosigan. > "Then how can anybody get their schooling?" > "They don't." > Cordelia stared. "I don't understand. How do they get their jobs?" > "A few escape to the Service. The rest prey on each other, mostly." Vorkosigan regarded her face uneasily. "Have you no poverty on Beta Colony?" > "Poverty? Well, some people have more money than others, of course, but... no comconsoles?" > Vorkosigan was diverted from his interrogation. "Is not owning a comconsole the lowest standard of living you can imagine?" he said in wonder. > "It's the first article in the constitution. 'Access to information shall not be abridged.' " -- Shards of Honor (1986) by Lois McMaster Bujold In the 39 years since this was published, I would have hoped our real society would have advanced a bit more in that direction.

theragra 2y ago
Thanks, a bit of nostalgy from my youth. I read it in Russian, in 200x, though
- falcor84 2y ago
  It took me a short while to understand that "200x" probably means a year between [2000,2010), and not that you listened to it at a speed of 20000%

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

> I imagine that many or most homeless people don't have reliable access to any of the above. In the US there is a specific government program called "Lifeline" that provides cell phone service to low income people, https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-consumers https://www.fcc.gov/general/lifeline-program-low-income-cons... (whether it gets DOGEd remains to be seen...) And where I live there are a bunch of programs that provide free cell phones to homeless people. It's not a panacea because lots of homeless people have other problems that make it difficult to keep a cell phone and not lose it. But that's really a separate issue - not having access is really not much of a barrier for the homeless, at least in the US.

stonogo 2y ago
You cannot receive Lifeline benefits without an address in most states.

HDThoreaun 2y ago

[flagged]

MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
For me, it's less about lifestyle choices, and more about managing failure domains. If a person is kicked off their ISP/ cell carrier due to a private dispute with them, why should their entire life have to grind to a screeching halt in every other area? It's maddening how little recourse there is and how difficult it can be if you lose both your phone and number, and I vehemently disagree that we should be ok with any of it.