7 ms·

At what point does this constitute a hostile action against the user and what degree of retaliation is appropriate? Open question for everyone.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
what retaliation are you imagining and against whom? who is even "the user" here?
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Do a little reverse engineering/analysis on the app, to parallel-construct the claims of 'fifticon (as to not require them to leak internal info or become a whistleblower). If it's as bad as it sounds, go to press. Or just dump an expose on Twitter/X to maximize public awareness. > who is even "the user" here? The doctors and their patients. If it's as bad as it sounds, it actively degrades the ability of doctors to provide care, so it quite literally hurts actual people.
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 2y ago
    People should instead just vote with you feet and dollars. That'll be inconvenient, but if it bothers you enough, you'll make the effort. A crucial part of this approach is to let your doctor know exactly why you're leaving. If they're losing business over it, they'll look for alternatives. And if the EHR company loses money, they'll look to make changes, too.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      Yea, I wouldn't put up with a doctor that required me to interact with him through an app. I'd switch doctors, and hopefully find a way to let the old doctor know why I'm switching. That's often the hardest part--actually finding an owner who is harmed when a customer leaves.
    - azemetre 2y ago
      Usually when people say vote with your wallet, it means those with more money make the rules. What recourse does an individual have if they live in a rural area with 1 or 3 doctors that all use the same hostile software? Should they suffer because they don't have money or the ability to go else where?
      - michaelmrose 2y ago
        Most people don't have 3 doctors let alone 3 which all use the same niche/bad customer facing software. Those that do should organize to make their displeasure known. Senior decision makers are probably incompetent boobs rather than compete assholes. If they live somewhere with 1 doc they should vote with their feet by leaving before the town finishes dying around them.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        azemetre 2y ago
        So we should condemn large swaths of the rural population to not only abject poverty, but remove health care access too? Is this what you're seriously arguing? That people should be forced to have a worse quality life, die earlier; all because they committed the crime of not living in a metropolis? Do you not see how people read this as completely heartless and devoid of empathy towards their fellow man?
        genewitch 2y ago
        Yeah I should move out of the subtropical rain forest and move back to urban asthma and traffic and crime, and noise. The idea that my neighbors and I are gunna go picket the only person within 20 miles that can write a prescription is ludicrous.
        michaelmrose 2y ago
        >Be forced to have a worse quality life, die earlier; all because they committed the crime of not living in a metropolis? Literally already the case and more so care isn't cheaper unlike land so your lesser dollars buys lesser care and no realistic access to specialists
    - drdaeman 2y ago
      Surely it's not a well-functioning market, when the client (the medical organization) had accepted and paid for a clearly dysfunctional software that harms their operations. Yet, they somehow survive and continue to function despite it. And thus it's questionable whenever voting with wallet would work. It works in healthy, free and competitive markets with rational actors, and we probably aren't looking at one.
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    My PCP once apologized for a system upgrade (he had joined a larger medical practice) which "forces me to look at this laptop screen instead of you, My Friend" And he was well aware that I'm a guy whose mental illness can mostly be traced to escaping into screens since the first Family Cathode Ray of 1974 and Clarke Monolith of 1968
- j-bos 2y ago
  I imagine legal retaliation as the perpetual loading could be framed as blocking access to medical care.
Henchman21 2y ago
I’m gonna punt on the question of where the line is for hostile actions and use some past legal justification of “I know it when I see it” and I see it clearly here. The second part is the more interesting question to me: Appropriate reactions would seem to include: - finding a new doctor/practice/provider. Super hard in practice as they seem to be geographical monopolies a la the cable networks - providing appropriately hostile feedback to your current doctors — but this is likely only to garner empathy as the docs have little say over this - stop using smartphones and claim hardship — not sure how this would pan out. Probably not well? - channeling Luigi and murdering the people responsible for our ongoing dystopia Seriously what other options are there? You can either complain to the ether and it goes nowhere. Or you can take up violence and it still likely goes nowhere and you fuck up your life. This is why so many people are content to let the world burn. It ain’t for us anymore anyway.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
  Is stupidity instead of hardship a legally valid claim? Are cognitively disabled people, unable to operate a smartphone, a protected class?
  - Henchman21 2y ago
    If the entire world requires smartphones to take part and you are unable to use a smartphone you deserve some protection, yes. If you see other options I’d be happy to hear them?
    - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
      My question is can I sue based on that?
      - Henchman21 2y ago
        If you’re a protected class I would assume yes. IANAL this is not legal advice and this is not a real situation anyway
meristohm 2y ago
I tend to push back against this nonsense pretty firmly, and would go so far as to request paper documents be sent, as "I don't have a device up to the task" (which sometimes is true, as I use old hardware until I luck into a handmedown or the thing breaks). I get that paper and postage and time are costs. So is user time and stress level.
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  It will be an uphill struggle for you to claim obsolescence. The general public are currently being trained with administrative assistant/clerical skills in order to do this labor for companies unable to support a workforce. Your card transactions are now your responsibility, not a cashier's. Your menu ordering is in your hands from the cloud, not a waitress you can harass. Your vehicle's vital functions, safety mechanisms, and accessories are all on you, in motion or at rest. All your paperwork is cloud-assisted but you're the secretary and they're going paperless so you'd better have a nice printer, too. Your mobile apps are living rent-free in your home/pocket and you've got limited authority over their resource usage, especially if a coin miner or botnet is part of your package deal. Currently I'm struggling with my ISP because apparently the providers in USA are segregating/unbundling Mobile Wireless service and moving toward stricter metering/throttling of data and bandwidth, so it would seem that this Mandatory Smartphone also demands an Unlimited 5G plan to match.
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
when the functioning of the app means that people with disabilities, including cognitive disabilities, will be denied medical access, and the retaliation is probably a lawsuit appropriate to your jurisdiction, if your jurisdiction does not support accessibility legislation then you're probably out of luck.

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago

what retaliation are you imagining and against whom? who is even "the user" here?

TeMPOraL 2y ago
Do a little reverse engineering/analysis on the app, to parallel-construct the claims of 'fifticon (as to not require them to leak internal info or become a whistleblower). If it's as bad as it sounds, go to press. Or just dump an expose on Twitter/X to maximize public awareness. > who is even "the user" here? The doctors and their patients. If it's as bad as it sounds, it actively degrades the ability of doctors to provide care, so it quite literally hurts actual people.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 2y ago
  People should instead just vote with you feet and dollars. That'll be inconvenient, but if it bothers you enough, you'll make the effort. A crucial part of this approach is to let your doctor know exactly why you're leaving. If they're losing business over it, they'll look for alternatives. And if the EHR company loses money, they'll look to make changes, too.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Yea, I wouldn't put up with a doctor that required me to interact with him through an app. I'd switch doctors, and hopefully find a way to let the old doctor know why I'm switching. That's often the hardest part--actually finding an owner who is harmed when a customer leaves.
  - azemetre 2y ago
    Usually when people say vote with your wallet, it means those with more money make the rules. What recourse does an individual have if they live in a rural area with 1 or 3 doctors that all use the same hostile software? Should they suffer because they don't have money or the ability to go else where?
    - michaelmrose 2y ago
      Most people don't have 3 doctors let alone 3 which all use the same niche/bad customer facing software. Those that do should organize to make their displeasure known. Senior decision makers are probably incompetent boobs rather than compete assholes. If they live somewhere with 1 doc they should vote with their feet by leaving before the town finishes dying around them.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - azemetre 2y ago
        So we should condemn large swaths of the rural population to not only abject poverty, but remove health care access too? Is this what you're seriously arguing? That people should be forced to have a worse quality life, die earlier; all because they committed the crime of not living in a metropolis? Do you not see how people read this as completely heartless and devoid of empathy towards their fellow man?
        genewitch 2y ago
        Yeah I should move out of the subtropical rain forest and move back to urban asthma and traffic and crime, and noise. The idea that my neighbors and I are gunna go picket the only person within 20 miles that can write a prescription is ludicrous.
        michaelmrose 2y ago
        >Be forced to have a worse quality life, die earlier; all because they committed the crime of not living in a metropolis? Literally already the case and more so care isn't cheaper unlike land so your lesser dollars buys lesser care and no realistic access to specialists
  - drdaeman 2y ago
    Surely it's not a well-functioning market, when the client (the medical organization) had accepted and paid for a clearly dysfunctional software that harms their operations. Yet, they somehow survive and continue to function despite it. And thus it's questionable whenever voting with wallet would work. It works in healthy, free and competitive markets with rational actors, and we probably aren't looking at one.
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  My PCP once apologized for a system upgrade (he had joined a larger medical practice) which "forces me to look at this laptop screen instead of you, My Friend" And he was well aware that I'm a guy whose mental illness can mostly be traced to escaping into screens since the first Family Cathode Ray of 1974 and Clarke Monolith of 1968
j-bos 2y ago
I imagine legal retaliation as the perpetual loading could be framed as blocking access to medical care.

Henchman21 2y ago

I’m gonna punt on the question of where the line is for hostile actions and use some past legal justification of “I know it when I see it” and I see it clearly here. The second part is the more interesting question to me: Appropriate reactions would seem to include: - finding a new doctor/practice/provider. Super hard in practice as they seem to be geographical monopolies a la the cable networks - providing appropriately hostile feedback to your current doctors — but this is likely only to garner empathy as the docs have little say over this - stop using smartphones and claim hardship — not sure how this would pan out. Probably not well? - channeling Luigi and murdering the people responsible for our ongoing dystopia Seriously what other options are there? You can either complain to the ether and it goes nowhere. Or you can take up violence and it still likely goes nowhere and you fuck up your life. This is why so many people are content to let the world burn. It ain’t for us anymore anyway.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
Is stupidity instead of hardship a legally valid claim? Are cognitively disabled people, unable to operate a smartphone, a protected class?
- Henchman21 2y ago
  If the entire world requires smartphones to take part and you are unable to use a smartphone you deserve some protection, yes. If you see other options I’d be happy to hear them?
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
    My question is can I sue based on that?
    - Henchman21 2y ago
      If you’re a protected class I would assume yes. IANAL this is not legal advice and this is not a real situation anyway

meristohm 2y ago

I tend to push back against this nonsense pretty firmly, and would go so far as to request paper documents be sent, as "I don't have a device up to the task" (which sometimes is true, as I use old hardware until I luck into a handmedown or the thing breaks). I get that paper and postage and time are costs. So is user time and stress level.

AStonesThrow 2y ago
It will be an uphill struggle for you to claim obsolescence. The general public are currently being trained with administrative assistant/clerical skills in order to do this labor for companies unable to support a workforce. Your card transactions are now your responsibility, not a cashier's. Your menu ordering is in your hands from the cloud, not a waitress you can harass. Your vehicle's vital functions, safety mechanisms, and accessories are all on you, in motion or at rest. All your paperwork is cloud-assisted but you're the secretary and they're going paperless so you'd better have a nice printer, too. Your mobile apps are living rent-free in your home/pocket and you've got limited authority over their resource usage, especially if a coin miner or botnet is part of your package deal. Currently I'm struggling with my ISP because apparently the providers in USA are segregating/unbundling Mobile Wireless service and moving toward stricter metering/throttling of data and bandwidth, so it would seem that this Mandatory Smartphone also demands an Unlimited 5G plan to match.

bryanrasmussen 2y ago

when the functioning of the app means that people with disabilities, including cognitive disabilities, will be denied medical access, and the retaliation is probably a lawsuit appropriate to your jurisdiction, if your jurisdiction does not support accessibility legislation then you're probably out of luck.