3 ms·

For me it was the part where the author claims that "computing is political", therefore computer clubs should be too. Computing is very much not political. It's

by bigstrat2003 2y ago

For me it was the part where the author claims that "computing is political", therefore computer clubs should be too. Computing is very much not political. It's a tool. Like any tool, it can be used for various ends, both political and apolitical. If you want a computer club, have a computer club. If you want a political club, have a political club. But I think forcing the two together weakens both pursuits.

monocasa 2y ago
Tools are political. They're constructed to fulfill people's needs. "Political" doesn't have to mean 'relating to a political party or election'.
plantwallshoe 2y ago
I think computer is political in the way art is inherently political. Even if a piece of art isn’t explicitly about politics (an oil painting of a sunset), it’s still born of the lived experience and thoughts and emotions and politics of the artist.
- kybernetyk 2y ago
  Not everyone revolves their life around politics.
  - mordae 2y ago
    Everybody does. Every day. According to Wikipedia, Politics: > is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations among individuals
  - ImHereToVote 2y ago
    Not knowingly; they are though.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      No, they're not, except to those who want to drag them into politics. For people whose lives revolve around politics, everything is politics, but that's just them.
- onionisafruit 2y ago
  so not political
  - pastage 2y ago
    Having been part running of three +1000 members computer clubs with a weekly attendance of about 10-150. I would rather say that if you are not political you do not have a club. One of the standard by laws for clubs here is "not bound to political party", i.e we had a few extreme right wing people and many left wing and a great mass of moderate. GNU GPL is political, every choice you do in computers have a political component. You choose if you allow piracy, black hats, surveillance, alcohol, meat, veganism etc. These are political decisions that will effect the feel of your club, even if you actively do not care about a decision. The important part is that the club needs to survive and it only does that if you manage to find new people who wants do stuff, and put partisanship aside.
treyd 2y ago
> Computing is very much not political. This is obviously false with a tiny bit of consideration. If your definition of "computing" is narrowly constrained to the abstract mathematical reasoning then sure. But if we consider a broader scope, then computers, the internet, and how the software we use to interact with them are designed is absolutely a political topic due to how it shapes not just interpersonal interactions, but also the kinds of business models that are possible and, downstream of that, modern society as a whole. Among other issues.
datadrivenangel 2y ago
The personal is political, but also, yes I agree that you don't have to weight the politics 100% of the time.
whatshisface 2y ago
I don't think the author is talking about starting a computer club, they're thinking about a social club. To get people in the door at a social club you need them to think "that'll be people like me." So "Democrat ladies who lunch and write patches for Mastodon," and "Trump supporters who drink beer and write surveillance software," or "meditation group (Haskell-only)" would work great, much better than "Your coworkers, but you've never met them before."
- onionisafruit 2y ago
  where do I sign up for meditation group (Haskell-only)?
MrVandemar 2y ago
A firearm is a tool. Do you think firearm ownership and usage is free from politics? Do you think a gun club is free from politics?
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > Do you think firearm ownership and usage is free from politics? Of course not. > Do you think a gun club is free from politics? That depends. Is it a "let's talk everything about guns"? Is it a "let's go to a shooting range and shoot guns" club? There's a place for people to discuss things, there's a place for people to do things together, and neither might be a good place for people willing to be political in the sense of some people trying to coerce club members into specific beliefs, or trying to make the organization pursue some social cause. Want to have a social gun club? Find or start one specifically about gun-related social causes! There's space for that too! Really, all this "political" vs. "not political" boils down to people wanting to "talk shop", discuss technical or practical or emotional aspects of something, without feeling coerced to join causes and judged for not joining them, or otherwise have their standing as a human being questioned by some zealots.
  - MrVandemar 2y ago
    > Is it a "let's talk everything about guns"? Is it a "let's go to a shooting range and shoot guns" club? I know of no club where the purpose is merely to talk about guns. Gun clubs are typically organised shooting ranges. In Australia, if you own a firearm, I believe you are legally required to belong to one, and have some kind of minimum attendence per year. And yes, they discuss politics, and they veer strongly towards conspiricy paranoia. I expect it's the same in the US, especially with its NRA stranglehold the culture there. I'm not sure if you're aware of the Port Arthur massacre in the 1990s in Tasmania. Probably small beer if you're from the US with it's weekly atrocities. The PM at the time instituted a mandatory gun buy-back/hand-in/confiscation scheme to reduce the number of firearms in the community, which was broadly seen as a Good Thing (by people who don't own firearms. ie. the majority of the population). Talk in the gun-club is that the massacre was conspiricy perpetuated by the Gubmint in order to bring in tighter gun control laws, confiscate firearms, etc.
rsynnott 2y ago
> Computing is very much not political. It's a tool. Like any tool, it can be used for various ends, both political and apolitical. A nuclear warhead is a tool. Like any tool, it can be used for various ends, both political and apolitical. See how silly that sounds? Some tools have sufficient impact that they transform society, and that is inherently political.

monocasa 2y ago

Tools are political. They're constructed to fulfill people's needs. "Political" doesn't have to mean 'relating to a political party or election'.

plantwallshoe 2y ago

I think computer is political in the way art is inherently political. Even if a piece of art isn’t explicitly about politics (an oil painting of a sunset), it’s still born of the lived experience and thoughts and emotions and politics of the artist.

kybernetyk 2y ago
Not everyone revolves their life around politics.
- mordae 2y ago
  Everybody does. Every day. According to Wikipedia, Politics: > is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations among individuals
- ImHereToVote 2y ago
  Not knowingly; they are though.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    No, they're not, except to those who want to drag them into politics. For people whose lives revolve around politics, everything is politics, but that's just them.
onionisafruit 2y ago
so not political
- pastage 2y ago
  Having been part running of three +1000 members computer clubs with a weekly attendance of about 10-150. I would rather say that if you are not political you do not have a club. One of the standard by laws for clubs here is "not bound to political party", i.e we had a few extreme right wing people and many left wing and a great mass of moderate. GNU GPL is political, every choice you do in computers have a political component. You choose if you allow piracy, black hats, surveillance, alcohol, meat, veganism etc. These are political decisions that will effect the feel of your club, even if you actively do not care about a decision. The important part is that the club needs to survive and it only does that if you manage to find new people who wants do stuff, and put partisanship aside.

treyd 2y ago

> Computing is very much not political. This is obviously false with a tiny bit of consideration. If your definition of "computing" is narrowly constrained to the abstract mathematical reasoning then sure. But if we consider a broader scope, then computers, the internet, and how the software we use to interact with them are designed is absolutely a political topic due to how it shapes not just interpersonal interactions, but also the kinds of business models that are possible and, downstream of that, modern society as a whole. Among other issues.

datadrivenangel 2y ago

The personal is political, but also, yes I agree that you don't have to weight the politics 100% of the time.

whatshisface 2y ago

I don't think the author is talking about starting a computer club, they're thinking about a social club. To get people in the door at a social club you need them to think "that'll be people like me." So "Democrat ladies who lunch and write patches for Mastodon," and "Trump supporters who drink beer and write surveillance software," or "meditation group (Haskell-only)" would work great, much better than "Your coworkers, but you've never met them before."

onionisafruit 2y ago
where do I sign up for meditation group (Haskell-only)?

MrVandemar 2y ago

A firearm is a tool. Do you think firearm ownership and usage is free from politics? Do you think a gun club is free from politics?

TeMPOraL 2y ago
> Do you think firearm ownership and usage is free from politics? Of course not. > Do you think a gun club is free from politics? That depends. Is it a "let's talk everything about guns"? Is it a "let's go to a shooting range and shoot guns" club? There's a place for people to discuss things, there's a place for people to do things together, and neither might be a good place for people willing to be political in the sense of some people trying to coerce club members into specific beliefs, or trying to make the organization pursue some social cause. Want to have a social gun club? Find or start one specifically about gun-related social causes! There's space for that too! Really, all this "political" vs. "not political" boils down to people wanting to "talk shop", discuss technical or practical or emotional aspects of something, without feeling coerced to join causes and judged for not joining them, or otherwise have their standing as a human being questioned by some zealots.
- MrVandemar 2y ago
  > Is it a "let's talk everything about guns"? Is it a "let's go to a shooting range and shoot guns" club? I know of no club where the purpose is merely to talk about guns. Gun clubs are typically organised shooting ranges. In Australia, if you own a firearm, I believe you are legally required to belong to one, and have some kind of minimum attendence per year. And yes, they discuss politics, and they veer strongly towards conspiricy paranoia. I expect it's the same in the US, especially with its NRA stranglehold the culture there. I'm not sure if you're aware of the Port Arthur massacre in the 1990s in Tasmania. Probably small beer if you're from the US with it's weekly atrocities. The PM at the time instituted a mandatory gun buy-back/hand-in/confiscation scheme to reduce the number of firearms in the community, which was broadly seen as a Good Thing (by people who don't own firearms. ie. the majority of the population). Talk in the gun-club is that the massacre was conspiricy perpetuated by the Gubmint in order to bring in tighter gun control laws, confiscate firearms, etc.

rsynnott 2y ago

> Computing is very much not political. It's a tool. Like any tool, it can be used for various ends, both political and apolitical. A nuclear warhead is a tool. Like any tool, it can be used for various ends, both political and apolitical. See how silly that sounds? Some tools have sufficient impact that they transform society, and that is inherently political.