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> Finally, we must ask a new question: not “Why doesn’t anyone want to work in a factory?” but “How do we make building things exciting, inspiring, and financia

> Finally, we must ask a new question: not “Why doesn’t anyone want to work in a factory?” but “How do we make building things exciting, inspiring, and financially viable for millions of Americans?” This would require viewing workers as something more than fungible labor units whose success or failure is almost entirely a matter of their own performance. Few executives care if their workers are miserable— maybe they’ve got ‘retention’ problems, or ‘recruiting’ problems, both of which usually result in some HR-based initiative. I don’t see a executives taking that query seriously any time soon.

monero-xmr 2y ago
I worked in mega corporate retail and fast food from 16 through 20. Honestly it was fun, my coworkers and I got along great, we partied together, nothing about it was miserable. I think many elite leftists, like most people on HN, see everyone who works these jobs as miserable bastards and the jobs themselves as soul-sucking slavery. Few people are executives and look at things through the top management’s eyes. If you have an honest conversation without a diehard anti-capitalist and walk them logically through “cold” decisions a corporation makes, like layoffs etc, eventually you get to the point where they agree they make sense, but then justify themselves by arguing the entire system is corrupt and needs to be burned down and restarted with some sort of worker-democracy thing. You say “few executives care if their workers are miserable” and that is the dumbest, most misinformed, wrong take on earth. Even if the answer is only one of pure self-interest in profit, having all of your workers hate their lives and the company itself is beyond stupid, and is not the plan.
- silverquiet 2y ago
  Why did you stop working there at 20 then?
- chefandy 2y ago
  What most people viscerally understand as the worst is the worst they’ve experienced, and even if you intellectually understand that worse things exist, it’s easy to assume you relate to other people’s ‘worst’ far more than you do. My username isn’t based on a hobby— I am a classically-trained chef experienced in and intimately familiar with food service operations and labor from the retail concessions level to Michelin Star fine dining. Working fast food jobs can be tough, greasy, hot, and sometimes dangerous work, but it’s physically, mentally, and emotionally the easiest work in food preparation— almost no other job has been workshopped, designed, redesigned, re-outfitted, optimized and re-optimized for human interaction — and it doesn’t even pay the worst. Especially as a casual teen employee, it doesn’t hold a candle to working as an a la carte line cook, let alone in heavy manufacturing, or nearly any other blue collar work as an adult with adult responsibilities and needs. Even in the food industry — The cog-in-the-machine aspect of being a fast food worker doesn’t hold a candle to being a fine dining dishwasher, which pays less and is far more physically demanding, dangerous, monotonous, micromanaged, etc etc etc. Fast food work is more cog-in-the-machine-like than being a fine dining prep cook, but being a fine dining prep cook is much more physically demanding, stressful and skill-intensive. Lots of soul-crushing cog-in-the-machine work pays well because that’s the only way they can get anyone to work for them at all. Like working on the UPS truck loading line at the distribution point near where I grew up: the supervisors would walk around on catwalks above the docks with whistles and stop watches putting you on blast if they timed you loading fewer than X packages in a minute. Those jobs paid far better than other entry-level jobs in the area and made the chance of getting into the jobs people actually wanted— the delivery driver jobs— much easier. Those jobs were famously miserable, grueling, and dehumanizing and the people in charge couldn’t care less. They just kept inching up the pay until they could be filled because that’s the way business works. They didn’t think they had a problem with persistently understaffing the docs so it had to be run like a labor camp— they had recruitment and retention problems, which are a lot cheaper. And even delivery driver jobs these days are crap. People like trash truck drivers and corporate-employed Amazon delivery drivers interviewed often say they’re penalized for such minuscule lapses in productivity that they’re forced to piss in bottles because there’s no time for them to stop, even along their route. They’re not shooting for bonuses either— they’re just trying to not get fired. Does that sound like they’re happy? Do you think the bosses that created and enforce these requirements care if they’re miserable? I know one guy that got life-altering injuries as a tech school welding student. He was repairing a metal ladder above large underground storage tanks that the plant manager said had been emptied, triple-rinsed and dried. Well, he lied. They were full of miscellaneous waste chemicals. The sparks from the tig welder somehow ignited the gases in the tanks and he was blown through the roof of the plant and briefly woke up in the parking lot before waking up months later in the hospital wearing the silicone compression gloves save neck wrap he’d have to wear through his twenties to keep his skin grafts from falling off. In court, the plant manager said emptying and cleaning the tanks whenever people were going to be doing welding was just too expensive. He wasn’t fired. The medical expenses and facility damage were handled by insurance. Do you think he cared how miserable that boy’s life became? How about the private detectives their insurance company paid follow my friend around just in case they could snap a picture of us bowling or something they could use to prove non-compliance and deny his claims? Plant is still going strong today! They have had a few more explosions since, regrettably. Do think those types of stories are rare? Do you think you understand what working in a place like that is like based on your fast food experience? Of course business executives are making logical decisions based on the economics— that’s the entire fucking point. They’re doing that because that’s the way the system works. They didn’t create the system, it’s not their fault that the system works like that, but that doesn’t change that it is the way it is, or the effect it has on workers. > You say “few executives care if their workers are miserable” and that is the dumbest, most misinformed, wrong take on earth. Even if the answer is only one of pure self-interest in profit, having all of your workers hate their lives and the company itself is beyond stupid, and is not the plan. Got me! Always good to throw together a quick insult to make yourself feel better about not being able to put together a counterpoint, right? Saying I’m accusing executives of sitting in the c suite twisting their mustaches plotting ways to intentionally make their employees miserable is the “dumbest, most misinformed wrong” interpretation of what I said. Would you feel better had I said “few executives think twice about favoring all but the most trivial bits of profit over workers not being miserable?” Do you think manufacturing without union protections or worker safety laws would be better than in Victorian era mills or early 20th century mines? Why? Because executives care about their employees happiness beyond what it takes to keep them from quitting? If so, why isn’t that the case in China? If worker protections didn’t exist and the job market allowed it, do you really think that basic worker comfort and safety wouldn’t be traded for shareholder profits in a heartbeat? If you think that, you’re going to need some solid empirical evidence because that’s not the way humanity has operated historically. The only places in our country that support anything but high-skill speciality manufacturing are the places where people don’t have a choice. Look up a dozen run-of-the-mill production plants on Glassdoor and skip the reviews obviously made by HR— and then tell me that the people running those places are prioritizing worker happiness. The difficulty of profitably running a manufacturing business in the United States doesn’t change the fact that workers often bear the brunt of the efficiency measures implemented to make it possible. The author of this nice well-meaning article made some totally valid observations about reasons people don’t actively choose manufacturing jobs in this country when they have a choice — what’s not realistic is thinking we can make it all better just by changing the way we look at it.
  - monero-xmr 2y ago
    I disagree with everything you said. But you have such passion, I encourage you to direct your efforts towards starting a new business, then promptly give all the equity to your employees so you can all be equal owners.
    - chefandy 2y ago
      A lot of what I said was factual, and a lot of what I said was anecdotal, and none of what I said in either comment addressed employee owned businesses— what you think about what I wrote was obviously based on something other than I wrote, so great job writing a response that was even less useful and insightful than your first. Claiming victory exclusively over a position you assume someone holds while ignoring literally everything they actually said is just a sad, sad straw man argument.
      - monero-xmr 2y ago
        There was a time when I would go point-by-point through leftist wall-of-text but I don’t care enough anymore. At a high level it seems you have a very fundamental issue with the organization of the private sector and how employees get treated. I disagree, I love the private sector and think it’s wonderfully organized. I would encourage you to channel the rage into something useful like a business where you put your opinions into action. I would discourage you from having the government point weapons at me to do your bidding.
        chefandy 2y ago
        A) My wife and I both own small businesses. B) Being critical isn’t rage and dismissing criticism as blind rage is just an excuse to not have to grapple with difficult truths. C) Acknowledging the incentives to dehumanize workers is not leftism. It does not argue for workers to control the means of production or uncompromising democracy in the workplace. D) My political opinions don’t involve the government doing much of anything to anyone. Any other opinions of mine you want to invent? Go nuts.
- vunderba 2y ago
  Since we're trading anecdotal data, I also worked in retail and fast food throughout high school (Walmart, Chick-fil-A, and Hollywood DVD). While I wouldn't necessarily describe my experience as miserable, at its absolute best it was monotonous and repetitive. I definitely don't remember any of my coworkers describing the experience as "fun." The part about partying seems like a non sequitur, so I'll just ignore that. And as to the statement about executives being concerned with their employees welfare, perhaps you should read a bit into the history of Foxconn.
- NegativeLatency 2y ago
  > burned down and restarted with some sort of worker-democracy thing Pretty big difference between that and a worker owned place like Bobs Red Mill. We’re not talking about burning it down we’re talking about sharing profits and enabling workers to live comfortably too.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    The thing you learn as you get more involved in a company is that the workers on the bottom are paid the highest percentage of the value they create. i.e. bottom tier workers have the lowest margins of all workers, they are already keeping almost everything they create. So to "balance" this the only way to do it is to take from higher paid workers who already are getting paid much less than the value they create. That's why these systems are so rare and why they frequently collapse. People _really_ don't like carrying others weight any more than they have to.
    - trust_bt_verify 2y ago
      There is quite a bit of speculation here. Any sources to back up these feelings?
  - monero-xmr 2y ago
    If those places are so fantastic and a win-win for workers and consumers, then more of them will naturally be created because of the superior profit potential. What I will never support is the government putting a gun to my head to force me to create worker-owned businesses. You should win voluntarily with superior operating models, not the threat of jail.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  You worked in a fast food chain. Now imagine if you would have thought it was just as “fun” working in an Amazon Warehouse or being an Amazon driver with strict quotas. https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/05/24/delivery-drivers-sue-amazon-for-being-forced-to-pee-in-bottles/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/05/24/de... And yes this really happens. My (step)son who worked directly for Amazon - not a third party contractor verified it. Before you ask how do I know he worked directly for Amazon both times, he showed up in the internal employee directory (PhoneTool) when I worked at AWS.
  - monero-xmr 2y ago
    Amazon is a great place. My neighbor loved working there, now he works in the warehouse at a local museum of international repute. But he is a strong guy and prefers manual labor.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Andy is that you? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/mar/02/amazon-safety-citations-osha-department-of-justice https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/mar/02/amazon-sa...
      - monero-xmr 2y ago
        Hundreds of thousands of people work in Amazon warehouses. It isn’t analogous to a sweatshop or a plantation. They pay well for low skilled labor with good benefits. Here is an Econtalk episode about what working for Wal Mart is actually like, from someone who worked there, and why people prefer working there than the worshipped “mom and pops” https://www.econtalk.org/platt-on-working-at-wal-mart/ https://www.econtalk.org/platt-on-working-at-wal-mart/
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- nirui 2y ago
  > If you have an honest conversation without a diehard anti-capitalist and walk them logically through “cold” decisions a corporation makes This missed the point. The reality is, why should someone who's being laid off must think in a "purely logical 'cold' corporate way"? What benefit they could get by doing that? Compare to, say, just crying out loud for public support to pressure the corporate for a better term for themselves and the others? Everyone is speaking for their own asses, with talk points that could advance their own interest. In a sense, it's a poetry contest, sure, with some logic involved, but mainly benefit driven and emotional. > Even if the answer is only one of pure self-interest in profit, having all of your workers hate their lives and the company itself is beyond stupid, and is not the plan. Based on the same train of logic used in your comment, I don't see why "having all of your workers hate their lives and the company" is "beyond stupid". The "purely logical 'cold' corporate thinking" only cares about worker retention rate in order to maintain a good enough production. Whether or not the worker likes or hates the job is simply not on the metric, well, thus of course "is not the plan". So overall, I don't think the logic flows. A more realistic logic is that the corporate should not expect their employees to always act for corporate interests (especially during a lay off), and employees should not expect their bosses to always care about their hatred or happiness.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    >The reality is, why should someone who's being laid off must think in a "purely logical 'cold' corporate way" Because that is the only viable way. Your assumption is that the layoffs are a function of greed rather than a function of necessity. Your kids think they can't go to Disney world every year because you are greedy - obviously you have money look at all the stuff you buy. What they don't understand is that you would both love to take them every year and you know it's just totally unsustainable and would be incredibly financially irresponsible.

monero-xmr 2y ago

I worked in mega corporate retail and fast food from 16 through 20. Honestly it was fun, my coworkers and I got along great, we partied together, nothing about it was miserable. I think many elite leftists, like most people on HN, see everyone who works these jobs as miserable bastards and the jobs themselves as soul-sucking slavery. Few people are executives and look at things through the top management’s eyes. If you have an honest conversation without a diehard anti-capitalist and walk them logically through “cold” decisions a corporation makes, like layoffs etc, eventually you get to the point where they agree they make sense, but then justify themselves by arguing the entire system is corrupt and needs to be burned down and restarted with some sort of worker-democracy thing. You say “few executives care if their workers are miserable” and that is the dumbest, most misinformed, wrong take on earth. Even if the answer is only one of pure self-interest in profit, having all of your workers hate their lives and the company itself is beyond stupid, and is not the plan.

silverquiet 2y ago
Why did you stop working there at 20 then?
chefandy 2y ago
What most people viscerally understand as the worst is the worst they’ve experienced, and even if you intellectually understand that worse things exist, it’s easy to assume you relate to other people’s ‘worst’ far more than you do. My username isn’t based on a hobby— I am a classically-trained chef experienced in and intimately familiar with food service operations and labor from the retail concessions level to Michelin Star fine dining. Working fast food jobs can be tough, greasy, hot, and sometimes dangerous work, but it’s physically, mentally, and emotionally the easiest work in food preparation— almost no other job has been workshopped, designed, redesigned, re-outfitted, optimized and re-optimized for human interaction — and it doesn’t even pay the worst. Especially as a casual teen employee, it doesn’t hold a candle to working as an a la carte line cook, let alone in heavy manufacturing, or nearly any other blue collar work as an adult with adult responsibilities and needs. Even in the food industry — The cog-in-the-machine aspect of being a fast food worker doesn’t hold a candle to being a fine dining dishwasher, which pays less and is far more physically demanding, dangerous, monotonous, micromanaged, etc etc etc. Fast food work is more cog-in-the-machine-like than being a fine dining prep cook, but being a fine dining prep cook is much more physically demanding, stressful and skill-intensive. Lots of soul-crushing cog-in-the-machine work pays well because that’s the only way they can get anyone to work for them at all. Like working on the UPS truck loading line at the distribution point near where I grew up: the supervisors would walk around on catwalks above the docks with whistles and stop watches putting you on blast if they timed you loading fewer than X packages in a minute. Those jobs paid far better than other entry-level jobs in the area and made the chance of getting into the jobs people actually wanted— the delivery driver jobs— much easier. Those jobs were famously miserable, grueling, and dehumanizing and the people in charge couldn’t care less. They just kept inching up the pay until they could be filled because that’s the way business works. They didn’t think they had a problem with persistently understaffing the docs so it had to be run like a labor camp— they had recruitment and retention problems, which are a lot cheaper. And even delivery driver jobs these days are crap. People like trash truck drivers and corporate-employed Amazon delivery drivers interviewed often say they’re penalized for such minuscule lapses in productivity that they’re forced to piss in bottles because there’s no time for them to stop, even along their route. They’re not shooting for bonuses either— they’re just trying to not get fired. Does that sound like they’re happy? Do you think the bosses that created and enforce these requirements care if they’re miserable? I know one guy that got life-altering injuries as a tech school welding student. He was repairing a metal ladder above large underground storage tanks that the plant manager said had been emptied, triple-rinsed and dried. Well, he lied. They were full of miscellaneous waste chemicals. The sparks from the tig welder somehow ignited the gases in the tanks and he was blown through the roof of the plant and briefly woke up in the parking lot before waking up months later in the hospital wearing the silicone compression gloves save neck wrap he’d have to wear through his twenties to keep his skin grafts from falling off. In court, the plant manager said emptying and cleaning the tanks whenever people were going to be doing welding was just too expensive. He wasn’t fired. The medical expenses and facility damage were handled by insurance. Do you think he cared how miserable that boy’s life became? How about the private detectives their insurance company paid follow my friend around just in case they could snap a picture of us bowling or something they could use to prove non-compliance and deny his claims? Plant is still going strong today! They have had a few more explosions since, regrettably. Do think those types of stories are rare? Do you think you understand what working in a place like that is like based on your fast food experience? Of course business executives are making logical decisions based on the economics— that’s the entire fucking point. They’re doing that because that’s the way the system works. They didn’t create the system, it’s not their fault that the system works like that, but that doesn’t change that it is the way it is, or the effect it has on workers. > You say “few executives care if their workers are miserable” and that is the dumbest, most misinformed, wrong take on earth. Even if the answer is only one of pure self-interest in profit, having all of your workers hate their lives and the company itself is beyond stupid, and is not the plan. Got me! Always good to throw together a quick insult to make yourself feel better about not being able to put together a counterpoint, right? Saying I’m accusing executives of sitting in the c suite twisting their mustaches plotting ways to intentionally make their employees miserable is the “dumbest, most misinformed wrong” interpretation of what I said. Would you feel better had I said “few executives think twice about favoring all but the most trivial bits of profit over workers not being miserable?” Do you think manufacturing without union protections or worker safety laws would be better than in Victorian era mills or early 20th century mines? Why? Because executives care about their employees happiness beyond what it takes to keep them from quitting? If so, why isn’t that the case in China? If worker protections didn’t exist and the job market allowed it, do you really think that basic worker comfort and safety wouldn’t be traded for shareholder profits in a heartbeat? If you think that, you’re going to need some solid empirical evidence because that’s not the way humanity has operated historically. The only places in our country that support anything but high-skill speciality manufacturing are the places where people don’t have a choice. Look up a dozen run-of-the-mill production plants on Glassdoor and skip the reviews obviously made by HR— and then tell me that the people running those places are prioritizing worker happiness. The difficulty of profitably running a manufacturing business in the United States doesn’t change the fact that workers often bear the brunt of the efficiency measures implemented to make it possible. The author of this nice well-meaning article made some totally valid observations about reasons people don’t actively choose manufacturing jobs in this country when they have a choice — what’s not realistic is thinking we can make it all better just by changing the way we look at it.
- monero-xmr 2y ago
  I disagree with everything you said. But you have such passion, I encourage you to direct your efforts towards starting a new business, then promptly give all the equity to your employees so you can all be equal owners.
  - chefandy 2y ago
    A lot of what I said was factual, and a lot of what I said was anecdotal, and none of what I said in either comment addressed employee owned businesses— what you think about what I wrote was obviously based on something other than I wrote, so great job writing a response that was even less useful and insightful than your first. Claiming victory exclusively over a position you assume someone holds while ignoring literally everything they actually said is just a sad, sad straw man argument.
    - monero-xmr 2y ago
      There was a time when I would go point-by-point through leftist wall-of-text but I don’t care enough anymore. At a high level it seems you have a very fundamental issue with the organization of the private sector and how employees get treated. I disagree, I love the private sector and think it’s wonderfully organized. I would encourage you to channel the rage into something useful like a business where you put your opinions into action. I would discourage you from having the government point weapons at me to do your bidding.
      - chefandy 2y ago
        A) My wife and I both own small businesses. B) Being critical isn’t rage and dismissing criticism as blind rage is just an excuse to not have to grapple with difficult truths. C) Acknowledging the incentives to dehumanize workers is not leftism. It does not argue for workers to control the means of production or uncompromising democracy in the workplace. D) My political opinions don’t involve the government doing much of anything to anyone. Any other opinions of mine you want to invent? Go nuts.
vunderba 2y ago
Since we're trading anecdotal data, I also worked in retail and fast food throughout high school (Walmart, Chick-fil-A, and Hollywood DVD). While I wouldn't necessarily describe my experience as miserable, at its absolute best it was monotonous and repetitive. I definitely don't remember any of my coworkers describing the experience as "fun." The part about partying seems like a non sequitur, so I'll just ignore that. And as to the statement about executives being concerned with their employees welfare, perhaps you should read a bit into the history of Foxconn.
NegativeLatency 2y ago
> burned down and restarted with some sort of worker-democracy thing Pretty big difference between that and a worker owned place like Bobs Red Mill. We’re not talking about burning it down we’re talking about sharing profits and enabling workers to live comfortably too.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  The thing you learn as you get more involved in a company is that the workers on the bottom are paid the highest percentage of the value they create. i.e. bottom tier workers have the lowest margins of all workers, they are already keeping almost everything they create. So to "balance" this the only way to do it is to take from higher paid workers who already are getting paid much less than the value they create. That's why these systems are so rare and why they frequently collapse. People _really_ don't like carrying others weight any more than they have to.
  - trust_bt_verify 2y ago
    There is quite a bit of speculation here. Any sources to back up these feelings?
- monero-xmr 2y ago
  If those places are so fantastic and a win-win for workers and consumers, then more of them will naturally be created because of the superior profit potential. What I will never support is the government putting a gun to my head to force me to create worker-owned businesses. You should win voluntarily with superior operating models, not the threat of jail.
scarface_74 2y ago
You worked in a fast food chain. Now imagine if you would have thought it was just as “fun” working in an Amazon Warehouse or being an Amazon driver with strict quotas. https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/05/24/delivery-drivers-sue-amazon-for-being-forced-to-pee-in-bottles/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/katherinehamilton/2023/05/24/de... And yes this really happens. My (step)son who worked directly for Amazon - not a third party contractor verified it. Before you ask how do I know he worked directly for Amazon both times, he showed up in the internal employee directory (PhoneTool) when I worked at AWS.
- monero-xmr 2y ago
  Amazon is a great place. My neighbor loved working there, now he works in the warehouse at a local museum of international repute. But he is a strong guy and prefers manual labor.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Andy is that you? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/mar/02/amazon-safety-citations-osha-department-of-justice https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/mar/02/amazon-sa...
    - monero-xmr 2y ago
      Hundreds of thousands of people work in Amazon warehouses. It isn’t analogous to a sweatshop or a plantation. They pay well for low skilled labor with good benefits. Here is an Econtalk episode about what working for Wal Mart is actually like, from someone who worked there, and why people prefer working there than the worshipped “mom and pops” https://www.econtalk.org/platt-on-working-at-wal-mart/ https://www.econtalk.org/platt-on-working-at-wal-mart/
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
nirui 2y ago
> If you have an honest conversation without a diehard anti-capitalist and walk them logically through “cold” decisions a corporation makes This missed the point. The reality is, why should someone who's being laid off must think in a "purely logical 'cold' corporate way"? What benefit they could get by doing that? Compare to, say, just crying out loud for public support to pressure the corporate for a better term for themselves and the others? Everyone is speaking for their own asses, with talk points that could advance their own interest. In a sense, it's a poetry contest, sure, with some logic involved, but mainly benefit driven and emotional. > Even if the answer is only one of pure self-interest in profit, having all of your workers hate their lives and the company itself is beyond stupid, and is not the plan. Based on the same train of logic used in your comment, I don't see why "having all of your workers hate their lives and the company" is "beyond stupid". The "purely logical 'cold' corporate thinking" only cares about worker retention rate in order to maintain a good enough production. Whether or not the worker likes or hates the job is simply not on the metric, well, thus of course "is not the plan". So overall, I don't think the logic flows. A more realistic logic is that the corporate should not expect their employees to always act for corporate interests (especially during a lay off), and employees should not expect their bosses to always care about their hatred or happiness.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  >The reality is, why should someone who's being laid off must think in a "purely logical 'cold' corporate way" Because that is the only viable way. Your assumption is that the layoffs are a function of greed rather than a function of necessity. Your kids think they can't go to Disney world every year because you are greedy - obviously you have money look at all the stuff you buy. What they don't understand is that you would both love to take them every year and you know it's just totally unsustainable and would be incredibly financially irresponsible.