6 ms·

"Also, some of the materials used to make them, such as silicon, are becoming scarcer and thus more expensive." !? The Earth's crust is 28% silicon by mass. I

"Also, some of the materials used to make them, such as silicon, are becoming scarcer and thus more expensive." !? The Earth's crust is 28% silicon by mass. It's literally the second most abundant element. I'm not a professional, but isn't most of the cost of solar outside the panels now anyway - installation, cabling, inverters, permitting, storage for use during peak hours, etc?

walrus01 2y ago
Ignoring for a moment the cost of inverters and storage... With the cost of big-ass 400W solar panels as low as they are now, in the pallet load or container load, much of the cost is actually the labor and the mounting. $150 per panel x 22 on a pallet = $3300 For a ground mounted PV system, you can easily spend far more than 3300 on the foundation work, concrete, steel erection and frame than the raw solar panel costs now. Randomly chosen 40kW theoretical would be $15000 in panels plus LTL truck cargo, the rest of the costs for a working system would be much more than 15k. It's also possible for a roof mounting system to cost more than the panels in materials and labor and time.
- 3eb7988a1663 2y ago
  Which is why I am a fan of this simple idea, just put them flat on the dirt. Stick a fence around it to stop deer, and see what happens. One company is trying it[0]. I am not sure if water drainage, plant growth, whatever might be a problem, but for the cost of installation, seems worth exploring. [0] https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/texas-solar-farm-flat-on-the-ground/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/texas-solar-farm-flat-on-the-...
  - walrus01 2y ago
    There's a few different companies selling roof intended mounting systems that use weight/ballast to hold down panels at about a 20 degree angle (facing south, in the northern hemisphere), which are basically big plastic trays with some clips to hold the panels and a place to put concrete blocks. Some care has to be taken to prevent gaps that let wind get underneath them for worst-case windstorm scenarios, but it's definitely a product that exists.
  - robbiep 2y ago
    There is also this company [0] The founder is a friend of mine and they’re growing very quickly particularly across mining and remote sites in Australia. Interestingly he said the efficiency loss from having panels mounted at the ‘wrong’ angle is essentially nothing particularly when you consider the increased density and reduction in site prep/installation. They can literally install a couple hundred kW in an afternoon [0] https://5b.co/ https://5b.co/
    - trhway 2y ago
      reminds military pontoon bridge deployment.
    - walrus01 2y ago
      If I'm understanding this right, it looks it comes packaged in a 40' ISO standard cargo container, then you use some piece of construction equipment to pull it sideways (on a skid?) out of the container, then pull the string lengthwise across the ground to unfold it to its full length. The website says "shallow ground penetration" which sounds to me like some sort of anchors that are drilled into the surface then bolts run down into them (such as with a construction team using the largest size of battery operated Milwaukee hammer drills?), or similar. https://5b.co/en/5b-maverick https://5b.co/en/5b-maverick
      - robbiep 2y ago
        Yep that’s pretty much it as far as I know. I think they’ve been floated as the deployment mechanism for the SunSolar/sunCable powering Singapore from the NT (…if that ever happens) I think it comes in pretty useful at temporary sites and for disaster relief but not sure if it’s been deployed for that yet
    - dbetteridge 2y ago
      Australian tech is so mining and property focused its crazy to me sometimes (especially here in WA)
    - walrus01 2y ago
      With the cost of panels as cheap as they are these days it makes much more sense to buy more panels rather than spending lots of money on trying to have everything like a perfect 35 degrees south facing angle. Even on a house, if you have a north facing roof, put up a separate string on that side if the budget permits. This is also why 2-axis and 3-axis tracker mechanisms are rarely seen these days, the cost of foundation/structure to build a thing on a concrete and steel pier that can 'steer' just six 1.65x1.0 meter size panels is extreme. It's like a big sail in wind loading so it takes a lot of steel and structure to resist that.
  - DamonHD 2y ago
    If the panels don't have a slope of at least 5 or 10 degrees dirt can easily accumulate on them and may not wash off effecively with rain. I have a couple near flat on my porch roof for example, that suffer from dirt accumulation more than others in my off-grid and grid-tied systems that have inclinations ranging from ~23 degrees to vertical.
    - walrus01 2y ago
      5-10 degrees of slope often isn't enough to keep panels clean on their own, depending on the climate and dust environment, some form of mechanical cleaning is still needed. This video is from a multi megawatt scale ground mount PV system in Rajasthan, India. https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18p1qy2/solar_panel_cleaning_robot_doing_its_thing_at/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18p1q... https://www.naturaecoenergy.com/robotic-solar-panel-cleaning-system-rajasthan/ https://www.naturaecoenergy.com/robotic-solar-panel-cleaning... How frequently really depends on the local climate, but at least a few times a year even in a place that doesn't have dust storms.
  - londons_explore 2y ago
    I did this at my house. A couple of hundred panels just laid on the ground. Even strong winds didn't lift them. But after just a few months they're kinda covered in mud.
    - walrus01 2y ago
      Would be interested in seeing photos of this if you have any, for comparison to other very low cost mounting systems
- PontifexMinimus 2y ago
  > It's also possible for a roof mounting system to cost more than the panels in materials and labor and time. Probably. The fix would be for the panels to be an intrinsic part of the roof, meaning they don't have to be separately installed.
vpribish 2y ago
HAHA! oh my. what a trash article this is. I read it and the whole thing. Every paragraph has a gem of nonsense, maybe it's AI tuned to the key of breathless doomer ignorance. OP, feel shame for reposting this.
Tadpole9181 2y ago
You guys do realize you can't just scoop rocks into a grinder and make chips, right? You need high quality sources of refinable materials...
dredmorbius 2y ago
Setting aside the veracity of the article for a moment ... ... a key factor in industrial-scale silicon production (microchips, PV, or otherwise) is the purity of the raw material. It may well be that high grade silica is fundamentally scarce, or that access to it may be restricted or limited by other factors. Sand theft is an issue that's emerged as a concern, largely as it's a huge industrial input, particularly in concrete, and the most suitable sands are found in riverbeds, rather than either deserts or beaches, both of which are far more abundant. Discussed five years ago on HN here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21758301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21758301> There are abundant materials whose useful stock or rates of production are limited by other factors. Nitrogen fertiliser is a canonical example: the raw element is abundant in air (70% of the atmosphere), but its fixation is extremely energy intensive, relying most keenly on natural gas supplies and prices. Ammonia and ammonia-based product costs (fertilisers, cleaning supplies, explosives) tend to fluctuate strongly with natural gas prices, despite the underlying abundance of nitrogen itself.
- h0l0cube 2y ago
  I don't refute this point, but the alternative materials would have to be more available than high-grade silicon for it to matter.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    Pretty much agreed on that, and I haven't followed the perovskites discussion closely enough to know where it falls on that basis. I have been aware of the technology vaguely for a decade or so. The raw material itself is CaTiO₃,[1] which are three fairly abundant elements, though how that compares with sufficiently pure silica isn't clear to me. My general feeling (from what I've read and experience with other strongly-promoted energy alternatives) is that applications are more likely to be niche, where conditions specifically favour perovskites' specific advantages. Those seem to be greater incident sunlight conversion efficiencies (~30% vs. 15--20% more typical of silicon PV, which is often less significant than might at first be apparent), and potentially lower manufacturing costs. As is noted in the discussion, panel cost itself is increasingly dwarfed by less-fungible labour and infrastructure costs (e.g., physical support, see <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43135371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43135371>). Worth keeping a finger on the pulse, but not something I'm getting particularly excited about. Pace of development has lagged hype/expectations over the decade or so I've been hearing about the tech. ________________________________ Notes: 1. See: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perovskite_(structure) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perovskite_(structure)>

walrus01 2y ago

Ignoring for a moment the cost of inverters and storage... With the cost of big-ass 400W solar panels as low as they are now, in the pallet load or container load, much of the cost is actually the labor and the mounting. $150 per panel x 22 on a pallet = $3300 For a ground mounted PV system, you can easily spend far more than 3300 on the foundation work, concrete, steel erection and frame than the raw solar panel costs now. Randomly chosen 40kW theoretical would be $15000 in panels plus LTL truck cargo, the rest of the costs for a working system would be much more than 15k. It's also possible for a roof mounting system to cost more than the panels in materials and labor and time.

3eb7988a1663 2y ago
Which is why I am a fan of this simple idea, just put them flat on the dirt. Stick a fence around it to stop deer, and see what happens. One company is trying it[0]. I am not sure if water drainage, plant growth, whatever might be a problem, but for the cost of installation, seems worth exploring. [0] https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/texas-solar-farm-flat-on-the-ground/ https://electrek.co/2022/12/12/texas-solar-farm-flat-on-the-...
- walrus01 2y ago
  There's a few different companies selling roof intended mounting systems that use weight/ballast to hold down panels at about a 20 degree angle (facing south, in the northern hemisphere), which are basically big plastic trays with some clips to hold the panels and a place to put concrete blocks. Some care has to be taken to prevent gaps that let wind get underneath them for worst-case windstorm scenarios, but it's definitely a product that exists.
- robbiep 2y ago
  There is also this company [0] The founder is a friend of mine and they’re growing very quickly particularly across mining and remote sites in Australia. Interestingly he said the efficiency loss from having panels mounted at the ‘wrong’ angle is essentially nothing particularly when you consider the increased density and reduction in site prep/installation. They can literally install a couple hundred kW in an afternoon [0] https://5b.co/ https://5b.co/
  - trhway 2y ago
    reminds military pontoon bridge deployment.
  - walrus01 2y ago
    If I'm understanding this right, it looks it comes packaged in a 40' ISO standard cargo container, then you use some piece of construction equipment to pull it sideways (on a skid?) out of the container, then pull the string lengthwise across the ground to unfold it to its full length. The website says "shallow ground penetration" which sounds to me like some sort of anchors that are drilled into the surface then bolts run down into them (such as with a construction team using the largest size of battery operated Milwaukee hammer drills?), or similar. https://5b.co/en/5b-maverick https://5b.co/en/5b-maverick
    - robbiep 2y ago
      Yep that’s pretty much it as far as I know. I think they’ve been floated as the deployment mechanism for the SunSolar/sunCable powering Singapore from the NT (…if that ever happens) I think it comes in pretty useful at temporary sites and for disaster relief but not sure if it’s been deployed for that yet
  - dbetteridge 2y ago
    Australian tech is so mining and property focused its crazy to me sometimes (especially here in WA)
  - walrus01 2y ago
    With the cost of panels as cheap as they are these days it makes much more sense to buy more panels rather than spending lots of money on trying to have everything like a perfect 35 degrees south facing angle. Even on a house, if you have a north facing roof, put up a separate string on that side if the budget permits. This is also why 2-axis and 3-axis tracker mechanisms are rarely seen these days, the cost of foundation/structure to build a thing on a concrete and steel pier that can 'steer' just six 1.65x1.0 meter size panels is extreme. It's like a big sail in wind loading so it takes a lot of steel and structure to resist that.
- DamonHD 2y ago
  If the panels don't have a slope of at least 5 or 10 degrees dirt can easily accumulate on them and may not wash off effecively with rain. I have a couple near flat on my porch roof for example, that suffer from dirt accumulation more than others in my off-grid and grid-tied systems that have inclinations ranging from ~23 degrees to vertical.
  - walrus01 2y ago
    5-10 degrees of slope often isn't enough to keep panels clean on their own, depending on the climate and dust environment, some form of mechanical cleaning is still needed. This video is from a multi megawatt scale ground mount PV system in Rajasthan, India. https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18p1qy2/solar_panel_cleaning_robot_doing_its_thing_at/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18p1q... https://www.naturaecoenergy.com/robotic-solar-panel-cleaning-system-rajasthan/ https://www.naturaecoenergy.com/robotic-solar-panel-cleaning... How frequently really depends on the local climate, but at least a few times a year even in a place that doesn't have dust storms.
- londons_explore 2y ago
  I did this at my house. A couple of hundred panels just laid on the ground. Even strong winds didn't lift them. But after just a few months they're kinda covered in mud.
  - walrus01 2y ago
    Would be interested in seeing photos of this if you have any, for comparison to other very low cost mounting systems
PontifexMinimus 2y ago
> It's also possible for a roof mounting system to cost more than the panels in materials and labor and time. Probably. The fix would be for the panels to be an intrinsic part of the roof, meaning they don't have to be separately installed.

vpribish 2y ago

HAHA! oh my. what a trash article this is. I read it and the whole thing. Every paragraph has a gem of nonsense, maybe it's AI tuned to the key of breathless doomer ignorance. OP, feel shame for reposting this.

Tadpole9181 2y ago

You guys do realize you can't just scoop rocks into a grinder and make chips, right? You need high quality sources of refinable materials...

dredmorbius 2y ago

Setting aside the veracity of the article for a moment ... ... a key factor in industrial-scale silicon production (microchips, PV, or otherwise) is the purity of the raw material. It may well be that high grade silica is fundamentally scarce, or that access to it may be restricted or limited by other factors. Sand theft is an issue that's emerged as a concern, largely as it's a huge industrial input, particularly in concrete, and the most suitable sands are found in riverbeds, rather than either deserts or beaches, both of which are far more abundant. Discussed five years ago on HN here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21758301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21758301> There are abundant materials whose useful stock or rates of production are limited by other factors. Nitrogen fertiliser is a canonical example: the raw element is abundant in air (70% of the atmosphere), but its fixation is extremely energy intensive, relying most keenly on natural gas supplies and prices. Ammonia and ammonia-based product costs (fertilisers, cleaning supplies, explosives) tend to fluctuate strongly with natural gas prices, despite the underlying abundance of nitrogen itself.

h0l0cube 2y ago
I don't refute this point, but the alternative materials would have to be more available than high-grade silicon for it to matter.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  Pretty much agreed on that, and I haven't followed the perovskites discussion closely enough to know where it falls on that basis. I have been aware of the technology vaguely for a decade or so. The raw material itself is CaTiO₃,[1] which are three fairly abundant elements, though how that compares with sufficiently pure silica isn't clear to me. My general feeling (from what I've read and experience with other strongly-promoted energy alternatives) is that applications are more likely to be niche, where conditions specifically favour perovskites' specific advantages. Those seem to be greater incident sunlight conversion efficiencies (~30% vs. 15--20% more typical of silicon PV, which is often less significant than might at first be apparent), and potentially lower manufacturing costs. As is noted in the discussion, panel cost itself is increasingly dwarfed by less-fungible labour and infrastructure costs (e.g., physical support, see <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43135371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43135371>). Worth keeping a finger on the pulse, but not something I'm getting particularly excited about. Pace of development has lagged hype/expectations over the decade or so I've been hearing about the tech. ________________________________ Notes: 1. See: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perovskite_(structure) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perovskite_(structure)>