5 ms·

I'm reminded of a passage from the last psychiatrist blog: “One of the great insights of psychoanalysis is that you never really want an object, you only want

by everly 2y ago

I'm reminded of a passage from the last psychiatrist blog: “One of the great insights of psychoanalysis is that you never really want an object, you only want the wanting, which means the solution is to set your sights on an impossible ideal and work hard to reach it. You won’t. That’s not just okay, that’s the point. It’s ok if you fantasize about knowing kung fu if you then try to actually learn kung fu, eventually you will understand you can never really know kung fu, and then you will die. And it will have been worth it.” I don't think it's sad at all.

crazygringo 2y ago
> One of the great insights of psychoanalysis is that you never really want an object, you only want the wanting ...no it's not? Much of traditional psychoanalysis has been superseded by modern psychotherapy. And I'm not even familiar with that idea being part of psychoanalysis in the first place. (And there are many schools of psychoanalysis that disagree with each other too.) Quite frankly, it's not a great insight. It's perfectly fine to want something and then get it. Don't worry, you'll want something else afterwards. The idea that you should set your sights on an impossible goal doesn't hold up to the slightest logical scrutiny here. And a lot of people get disillusioned or burned out from trying to achieve impossible things and failing. Modern psychotherapy is actually about aiming for achievable, realistic goals in your life. It's much more in line with the serenity prayer, in terms of aiming for realism: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
- everly 2y ago
  It's from a 10+ year-old blog post so I wouldn't expect it to be in line with modern psychotherapy. It's an insight that has stuck with me since then and seems to strike a chord with others when shared, regardless of whether or not it's "great". Of course it's fine to want something and then get it. Last night I wanted a Klondike bar so I walked to my freezer and got one. This misses the point entirely. Plenty of examples of people getting what they thought they wanted and still feeling unfulfilled. I appreciate your point about the serenity prayer, I think there's something relevant there for sure.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    > Plenty of examples of people getting what they thought they wanted and still feeling unfulfilled. Right, I think that's what might be striking a chord. Modern psychotherapy would tell you that you'd picked something thinking it would solve problems that it never would. A classic example is that if you achieved a certain career objective or measure of success, you would feel loved and approved of and worthy. And then when you achieve it, you don't. The answer is absolutely not to pick a goal you can't achieve. That's completely wrong. The answer is to understand that career or professional success will not make you feel loved. That if you feel like you have an unmet need for love and approval, you need psychotherapy to understand where that is coming from in terms of your childhood, current relationships, etc. And then you can reframe your professional or career goals as something else entirely. And when you reach one, you can feel proud and then set another one. You won't have a feeling of emptiness or unfulfillment, because you'd never set unrealistic expectations for what that achievement would provide.
    - hamburglar 2y ago
      It’s possible these are both right. You should pick achievable goals which will actually make you happy, and you should pick impossible goals that you will always enjoy working towards.
      - calebio 2y ago
        bingo, this was my thought as well. One perspective works well for the micro, and the other for the macro.
      - crazygringo 2y ago
        The problem with impossible goals is that there's no feedback if you're actually making progress. Far better to identify achievable goals that have a timespan of a few years max, and with milestones at least every few months to know you're on the right track. Impossible goals are ultimately a nonsensical proposition. And if you have an activity you enjoy, you just do that activity. Like crossword puzzles. They don't have a goal.
kayvulpe 2y ago
Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objet_petit_a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objet_petit_a
adastra22 2y ago
I once wanted to learn how to change the oil in my car. I learned, and then I changed the oil in my car. It was never about wanting to want to learn about my car.
- ozfive 2y ago
  Of course, some desires are straightforward. But if every want was just about the thing itself, marketing departments would be out of a job.
- everly 2y ago
  That's fine
  - adastra22 2y ago
    It shouldn't be expressed as a universal then: "you never really want an object, you only want the wanting"
    - genewitch 2y ago
      can you explain how an oil change is an object, otherwise it seems like you've got the wrong predicate. Knowledge isn't an object, either. Neither is "Kung Fu", "taking a shower", or "crossing the road." I would like my own suborbital two-seat rocket plane. That is an object. I probably will never have a two-seat rocket plane. I would like to win the lottery when it's over $300mm, the object would be the $150mm in after-tax winnings. I will probably never have $150mm in lottery winnings. I very specifically mentioned the lottery so maybe it "clicks" what's being talked about, at least the way i read it.
      - adastra22 2y ago
        Fresh oil in a car engine is an object.
    - everly 2y ago
      Sounds like you've got this all buttoned up
wzdd 2y ago
That is the sort of quote which gives psychiatry a bad name. Of course people want (and achieve) things, label-referrent-object wordplay aside, and of course people come to learn things, despite there being an infinite level of skill achievable. Imagine if instead of talking about kung foo they'd said "peeling potatoes", or "crossing the road", or "taking a shower". Same paradoxes around completion, but somehow less mysteriously unmasterable.

by everly 2y ago

crazygringo 2y ago

> One of the great insights of psychoanalysis is that you never really want an object, you only want the wanting ...no it's not? Much of traditional psychoanalysis has been superseded by modern psychotherapy. And I'm not even familiar with that idea being part of psychoanalysis in the first place. (And there are many schools of psychoanalysis that disagree with each other too.) Quite frankly, it's not a great insight. It's perfectly fine to want something and then get it. Don't worry, you'll want something else afterwards. The idea that you should set your sights on an impossible goal doesn't hold up to the slightest logical scrutiny here. And a lot of people get disillusioned or burned out from trying to achieve impossible things and failing. Modern psychotherapy is actually about aiming for achievable, realistic goals in your life. It's much more in line with the serenity prayer, in terms of aiming for realism: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

everly 2y ago
It's from a 10+ year-old blog post so I wouldn't expect it to be in line with modern psychotherapy. It's an insight that has stuck with me since then and seems to strike a chord with others when shared, regardless of whether or not it's "great". Of course it's fine to want something and then get it. Last night I wanted a Klondike bar so I walked to my freezer and got one. This misses the point entirely. Plenty of examples of people getting what they thought they wanted and still feeling unfulfilled. I appreciate your point about the serenity prayer, I think there's something relevant there for sure.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  > Plenty of examples of people getting what they thought they wanted and still feeling unfulfilled. Right, I think that's what might be striking a chord. Modern psychotherapy would tell you that you'd picked something thinking it would solve problems that it never would. A classic example is that if you achieved a certain career objective or measure of success, you would feel loved and approved of and worthy. And then when you achieve it, you don't. The answer is absolutely not to pick a goal you can't achieve. That's completely wrong. The answer is to understand that career or professional success will not make you feel loved. That if you feel like you have an unmet need for love and approval, you need psychotherapy to understand where that is coming from in terms of your childhood, current relationships, etc. And then you can reframe your professional or career goals as something else entirely. And when you reach one, you can feel proud and then set another one. You won't have a feeling of emptiness or unfulfillment, because you'd never set unrealistic expectations for what that achievement would provide.
  - hamburglar 2y ago
    It’s possible these are both right. You should pick achievable goals which will actually make you happy, and you should pick impossible goals that you will always enjoy working towards.
    - calebio 2y ago
      bingo, this was my thought as well. One perspective works well for the micro, and the other for the macro.
    - crazygringo 2y ago
      The problem with impossible goals is that there's no feedback if you're actually making progress. Far better to identify achievable goals that have a timespan of a few years max, and with milestones at least every few months to know you're on the right track. Impossible goals are ultimately a nonsensical proposition. And if you have an activity you enjoy, you just do that activity. Like crossword puzzles. They don't have a goal.

kayvulpe 2y ago

Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objet_petit_a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objet_petit_a

adastra22 2y ago

I once wanted to learn how to change the oil in my car. I learned, and then I changed the oil in my car. It was never about wanting to want to learn about my car.

ozfive 2y ago
Of course, some desires are straightforward. But if every want was just about the thing itself, marketing departments would be out of a job.
everly 2y ago
That's fine
- adastra22 2y ago
  It shouldn't be expressed as a universal then: "you never really want an object, you only want the wanting"
  - genewitch 2y ago
    can you explain how an oil change is an object, otherwise it seems like you've got the wrong predicate. Knowledge isn't an object, either. Neither is "Kung Fu", "taking a shower", or "crossing the road." I would like my own suborbital two-seat rocket plane. That is an object. I probably will never have a two-seat rocket plane. I would like to win the lottery when it's over $300mm, the object would be the $150mm in after-tax winnings. I will probably never have $150mm in lottery winnings. I very specifically mentioned the lottery so maybe it "clicks" what's being talked about, at least the way i read it.
    - adastra22 2y ago
      Fresh oil in a car engine is an object.
  - everly 2y ago
    Sounds like you've got this all buttoned up

wzdd 2y ago

That is the sort of quote which gives psychiatry a bad name. Of course people want (and achieve) things, label-referrent-object wordplay aside, and of course people come to learn things, despite there being an infinite level of skill achievable. Imagine if instead of talking about kung foo they'd said "peeling potatoes", or "crossing the road", or "taking a shower". Same paradoxes around completion, but somehow less mysteriously unmasterable.