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Short form: * One of the lead devs' laptops is named after Hitler's hideout in the forest * Their 2017 conference had a torchwalk that was a staple of Nazi yo

Short form: * One of the lead devs' laptops is named after Hitler's hideout in the forest * Their 2017 conference had a torchwalk that was a staple of Nazi youth camping (and heavily encouraged by the SS as a nationalism thing) * Multiple of the core devs are just assholes to people on and offline. * Most of the suckless philosophy is "It does barely what it needs to and it was built by us, so it's superior to what anyone else has written". A lot of it shows in dwm, dmenu, etc.

deadbabe 2y ago
In order to write highly opinionated software you have to be some kind of an asshole, otherwise other people wear you down with their own opinions.
- kelnos 2y ago
  It's one thing to be an asshole, it's quite another to subscribe to Nazi ideology. Linus Torvalds, for example, used to be a raging asshole, but as far as I know he was just a dick to other people who had pissed him off. He wasn't advocating for genocide or stripping rights away from people or whatever. This FRIGN guy seems like he might be a part of the latter group. If true, that makes him a very different kind of asshole, the kind we do not welcome into our communities.
ivirshup 2y ago
Not defending them, the Hitler laptop thing seems bad, but within Germany torchwalks are pretty normal and not Nazi associated. For example, there was one as part of a ceremony honoring Merkel as she left office.
- hobofan 2y ago
  There is a difference between a independently organized torchwalk, which especially after Charlottesville internationally gained popularity in far-right circles, and a "Zapfenstrich", a military honor granted to high ranking military/political leaders, which is tradition when the German chancelor/president leaves office. Yes, there are definitely also normal torchwalks in Germany (I have been part of some as part of church youthgroups). However with all the other information that has surfaced about suckless over the years, it really doesn't look like a coincidence that they choose that as a group activity on their get together over all other possible things you could be doing.
  - brooke2k 2y ago
    notably they did this only a few weeks after the "unite the right" white supremacist riots in Charlottesville, which IIRC is where the whole tiki torch thing started
    - anonfordays 2y ago
      Different country, Suckless isn't based in the US.
      - 9283409232 2y ago
        I don't think it matters. The rise of white supremacist in the US has echos throughout the world as far-right parties feel emboldened. The world follows America for better or worse.
        anonfordays 2y ago
        Of course it matters. I was in Germany at the time and it didn't even hit the news. Not every country follows every little grievance that happens in the US every day. A single death due to car ramming isn't notable in a country where dozens of children are shot to death in schools every year.
        9283409232 2y ago
        > Of course it matters. I was in Germany at the time and it didn't even hit the news This really doesn't matter. For reasons that I won't get into, I pay attention to Dutch news and most things that happen in The Netherlands don't make the news in the US. This doesn't mean you can't pay attention to another countries news. If you have certain ideologies you are more likely to pay attention to media that isn't mainstream.
  - arp242 2y ago
    The only reason I know "torch walks" and "far right" are somehow associated is because of this whole suckless thing that keeps coming back. Not everyone has the US news cycle intravenously injected. In my home town there's a yearly torch walk to celebrate the end of the occupation, and this hasn't changed because of Charlottesville. As for "all the other information that has surfaced about suckless": there really isn't anything other than that hostname. I have actually asked the person with that hostname directly twice, and they opted not to answer. I agree it's not a good look, especially in the context of some other posts from that person. But it's not a good look for that person, not for all of suckless. If you look at all Python devs, or all Rust devs, or all HN posters, or all people 1.86cm in height: there's bound to be some unpleasant people there. It's just how things work. And if you're going to make an accusation as serious as that then you really need to do better than "surely it can't be a coincidence..." Personally I'd say that a community which coalesced around a particular view on software also happens to have similar extreme political views as something that's rather unlikely. The entire reason this whole "suckles are Nazis" thing is even a thing is because a single person kept bringing it up on HN, Lobsters and Twitter. As near as I can tell, it's a pretty successful campaign from one exceedingly toxic person with a grudge.
timewizard 2y ago
I took dwm and made it my own 15 years ago. Hasn't really changed since. From my point of view they're not wrong. Open Source Software used to be about individuality. They're not actively campaigning to remove other window managers are they? That seems to be a feature of "community software" for whatever reason.
- nonrandomstring 2y ago
  +1 to that. Exactly the same. I customised dwm way back and keep a personal version around that I tweak and compile now and then. It's a couple hundred lines of cleanish C code. What I love is that I forget it's there. For years I simply forget I have a "window manager" because to me its a dozen keyboard shortcuts as a shim for managing terminals. If emacs could do that as invisibly I'd be a super happy chappie.
asveikau 2y ago
I like dwm, and dwm being pro-fascist would be disappointing to me. At risk of putting myself out there, it shows how crazy things have gotten when neo-nazi sympathies are described as "just some political beliefs".
- imiric 2y ago
  > I like dwm, and dwm being pro-fascist would be disappointing to me. How is dwm, a piece of software, part of a political ideology? If the program and its source code promoted a specific belief, that would be one thing. But I haven't seen that in any of the suckless tools I use. My comments weren't meant to trivialize anything the authors may or may not believe. I'm just saying that I personally don't care what that is, even if I may disagree with it. The software they produce is not in any way tainted by this.
  - asveikau 2y ago
    Sorry to reply again, but I just remembered we do have an example of software being "cancelled" like this. ReiserFS. The creator was convicted of murder and it went away. It was open source and could have been carried on by others, but wasn't. Granted, the technical advantages of ReiserFS had already been replicated elsewhere by that point.
    - imiric 2y ago
      Right, but ReiserFS was only officially deprecated in 2022, and removed from the kernel in 2024. The conviction happened in 2008. I don't think this counts as "cancellation". Interest in the filesystem waned over the years, in part surely due to the criminal case. But it was also technically superseded by other filesystems, so there wasn't any reason for keeping it. There was some chatter about Reiser4/5 a few years ago, and someone somewhere is probably still running and maintaining it outside of the kernel. As awful as that case was, I think it speaks to the possibility of separating art from artist. There's no reason that awful human beings, by whatever criteria we decide to label them as such, can't produce things that have artistic or technical merit. At the end of the day, we're all flawed in different ways. Chances are that many of the authors, artists, and celebrities we hold in high regard have thought or done things we wouldn't agree with, yet we never hear about it. Dismissing someone's entire existence because they've done something objectionable, or in this day and age simply said or implied something objectionable, is wrong IMO. Outrage travels like wildfire online, and can often be sparked by a misunderstanding, which is then amplified in various echo chambers. I'm not saying that wrong behavior should be swept under the rug. People should be held accountable for their words and actions. But at the same time, let's not crucify people because of some collective moral outrage against them. Context and nuance matter. The world would be a better place if we knew how to talk to each other despite of our differences.
mackal 2y ago
[flagged]
- slithytoves 2y ago
  > It's worth noting the 2017 tiki torchwalk was with in solidarity of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. This is false. Or do you have a source?
  - ninjin 2y ago
    Seconding the need for a source. Hypothetically, it could have been. The Unite the Right Rally was 11 to 12 August 2017 [1] and slcon 2017 1 to 3 September [2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally [2]: https://suckless.org/conferences/2017 https://suckless.org/conferences/2017 As I pointed out in another comment though. If these guys are diehard Nazis, they sure are keeping it for the conventions as I have seen nothing of it on the mailing lists or IRC for four or so years. What I have seen though are about a handful of Anarchists with varying degrees of involvement, but overall politics is pretty rare and it is mostly about using their software, programming in general, and how to find software that complies with their overall ideology.
slithytoves 2y ago
FRIGN is not a lead dev, he is simply a dev.
dijit 2y ago
> One of the lead devs' laptops is named after Hitler's hideout in the forest “The Wolf’s Lair” (but in German) sounds like it could plausibly be selected coincidentally. There are a lot of IRC nerds who use wolves as part of a moniker, “Canis”, “Lupine” & “Aardwolf” spring immediately to mind.
- atq2119 2y ago
  No. "The Wolf's Lair" does indeed sound like it could just refer to some place where a wolf lives. "Wolfsschanze" in German does not have the same connotation. ("Schanze" actually translates more literally to something like "fort".) No German would think of that as just neutrally describing a place where a wolf lives. It is 100% linked to the WWII bunkers.
  - blueflow 2y ago
    > No German would think of that as just neutrally describing a place where a wolf lives I do. You are wrong. Not specific to wolves, tho. When i learned about Hitlers base, i my first thought was whether Hitler was some kind of animal fan (what i later learned was called "being a furry")

deadbabe 2y ago

In order to write highly opinionated software you have to be some kind of an asshole, otherwise other people wear you down with their own opinions.

kelnos 2y ago
It's one thing to be an asshole, it's quite another to subscribe to Nazi ideology. Linus Torvalds, for example, used to be a raging asshole, but as far as I know he was just a dick to other people who had pissed him off. He wasn't advocating for genocide or stripping rights away from people or whatever. This FRIGN guy seems like he might be a part of the latter group. If true, that makes him a very different kind of asshole, the kind we do not welcome into our communities.

ivirshup 2y ago

Not defending them, the Hitler laptop thing seems bad, but within Germany torchwalks are pretty normal and not Nazi associated. For example, there was one as part of a ceremony honoring Merkel as she left office.

hobofan 2y ago
There is a difference between a independently organized torchwalk, which especially after Charlottesville internationally gained popularity in far-right circles, and a "Zapfenstrich", a military honor granted to high ranking military/political leaders, which is tradition when the German chancelor/president leaves office. Yes, there are definitely also normal torchwalks in Germany (I have been part of some as part of church youthgroups). However with all the other information that has surfaced about suckless over the years, it really doesn't look like a coincidence that they choose that as a group activity on their get together over all other possible things you could be doing.
- brooke2k 2y ago
  notably they did this only a few weeks after the "unite the right" white supremacist riots in Charlottesville, which IIRC is where the whole tiki torch thing started
  - anonfordays 2y ago
    Different country, Suckless isn't based in the US.
    - 9283409232 2y ago
      I don't think it matters. The rise of white supremacist in the US has echos throughout the world as far-right parties feel emboldened. The world follows America for better or worse.
      - anonfordays 2y ago
        Of course it matters. I was in Germany at the time and it didn't even hit the news. Not every country follows every little grievance that happens in the US every day. A single death due to car ramming isn't notable in a country where dozens of children are shot to death in schools every year.
        9283409232 2y ago
        > Of course it matters. I was in Germany at the time and it didn't even hit the news This really doesn't matter. For reasons that I won't get into, I pay attention to Dutch news and most things that happen in The Netherlands don't make the news in the US. This doesn't mean you can't pay attention to another countries news. If you have certain ideologies you are more likely to pay attention to media that isn't mainstream.
- arp242 2y ago
  The only reason I know "torch walks" and "far right" are somehow associated is because of this whole suckless thing that keeps coming back. Not everyone has the US news cycle intravenously injected. In my home town there's a yearly torch walk to celebrate the end of the occupation, and this hasn't changed because of Charlottesville. As for "all the other information that has surfaced about suckless": there really isn't anything other than that hostname. I have actually asked the person with that hostname directly twice, and they opted not to answer. I agree it's not a good look, especially in the context of some other posts from that person. But it's not a good look for that person, not for all of suckless. If you look at all Python devs, or all Rust devs, or all HN posters, or all people 1.86cm in height: there's bound to be some unpleasant people there. It's just how things work. And if you're going to make an accusation as serious as that then you really need to do better than "surely it can't be a coincidence..." Personally I'd say that a community which coalesced around a particular view on software also happens to have similar extreme political views as something that's rather unlikely. The entire reason this whole "suckles are Nazis" thing is even a thing is because a single person kept bringing it up on HN, Lobsters and Twitter. As near as I can tell, it's a pretty successful campaign from one exceedingly toxic person with a grudge.

timewizard 2y ago

I took dwm and made it my own 15 years ago. Hasn't really changed since. From my point of view they're not wrong. Open Source Software used to be about individuality. They're not actively campaigning to remove other window managers are they? That seems to be a feature of "community software" for whatever reason.

nonrandomstring 2y ago
+1 to that. Exactly the same. I customised dwm way back and keep a personal version around that I tweak and compile now and then. It's a couple hundred lines of cleanish C code. What I love is that I forget it's there. For years I simply forget I have a "window manager" because to me its a dozen keyboard shortcuts as a shim for managing terminals. If emacs could do that as invisibly I'd be a super happy chappie.

asveikau 2y ago

I like dwm, and dwm being pro-fascist would be disappointing to me. At risk of putting myself out there, it shows how crazy things have gotten when neo-nazi sympathies are described as "just some political beliefs".

imiric 2y ago
> I like dwm, and dwm being pro-fascist would be disappointing to me. How is dwm, a piece of software, part of a political ideology? If the program and its source code promoted a specific belief, that would be one thing. But I haven't seen that in any of the suckless tools I use. My comments weren't meant to trivialize anything the authors may or may not believe. I'm just saying that I personally don't care what that is, even if I may disagree with it. The software they produce is not in any way tainted by this.
- asveikau 2y ago
  Sorry to reply again, but I just remembered we do have an example of software being "cancelled" like this. ReiserFS. The creator was convicted of murder and it went away. It was open source and could have been carried on by others, but wasn't. Granted, the technical advantages of ReiserFS had already been replicated elsewhere by that point.
  - imiric 2y ago
    Right, but ReiserFS was only officially deprecated in 2022, and removed from the kernel in 2024. The conviction happened in 2008. I don't think this counts as "cancellation". Interest in the filesystem waned over the years, in part surely due to the criminal case. But it was also technically superseded by other filesystems, so there wasn't any reason for keeping it. There was some chatter about Reiser4/5 a few years ago, and someone somewhere is probably still running and maintaining it outside of the kernel. As awful as that case was, I think it speaks to the possibility of separating art from artist. There's no reason that awful human beings, by whatever criteria we decide to label them as such, can't produce things that have artistic or technical merit. At the end of the day, we're all flawed in different ways. Chances are that many of the authors, artists, and celebrities we hold in high regard have thought or done things we wouldn't agree with, yet we never hear about it. Dismissing someone's entire existence because they've done something objectionable, or in this day and age simply said or implied something objectionable, is wrong IMO. Outrage travels like wildfire online, and can often be sparked by a misunderstanding, which is then amplified in various echo chambers. I'm not saying that wrong behavior should be swept under the rug. People should be held accountable for their words and actions. But at the same time, let's not crucify people because of some collective moral outrage against them. Context and nuance matter. The world would be a better place if we knew how to talk to each other despite of our differences.

mackal 2y ago

[flagged]

slithytoves 2y ago
> It's worth noting the 2017 tiki torchwalk was with in solidarity of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. This is false. Or do you have a source?
- ninjin 2y ago
  Seconding the need for a source. Hypothetically, it could have been. The Unite the Right Rally was 11 to 12 August 2017 [1] and slcon 2017 1 to 3 September [2]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally [2]: https://suckless.org/conferences/2017 https://suckless.org/conferences/2017 As I pointed out in another comment though. If these guys are diehard Nazis, they sure are keeping it for the conventions as I have seen nothing of it on the mailing lists or IRC for four or so years. What I have seen though are about a handful of Anarchists with varying degrees of involvement, but overall politics is pretty rare and it is mostly about using their software, programming in general, and how to find software that complies with their overall ideology.

slithytoves 2y ago

FRIGN is not a lead dev, he is simply a dev.

dijit 2y ago

> One of the lead devs' laptops is named after Hitler's hideout in the forest “The Wolf’s Lair” (but in German) sounds like it could plausibly be selected coincidentally. There are a lot of IRC nerds who use wolves as part of a moniker, “Canis”, “Lupine” & “Aardwolf” spring immediately to mind.

atq2119 2y ago
No. "The Wolf's Lair" does indeed sound like it could just refer to some place where a wolf lives. "Wolfsschanze" in German does not have the same connotation. ("Schanze" actually translates more literally to something like "fort".) No German would think of that as just neutrally describing a place where a wolf lives. It is 100% linked to the WWII bunkers.
- blueflow 2y ago
  > No German would think of that as just neutrally describing a place where a wolf lives I do. You are wrong. Not specific to wolves, tho. When i learned about Hitlers base, i my first thought was whether Hitler was some kind of animal fan (what i later learned was called "being a furry")