4 ms·

Or the self-reich-ousness of folks like Suckless[0], like telling the OG author of redare (pancake, who is a very competent malware reverse engineer) he's an id

Or the self-reich-ousness of folks like Suckless[0], like telling the OG author of redare (pancake, who is a very competent malware reverse engineer) he's an idiot [1]. [0] https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/ https://tilde.team/~ben/suckmore/ [1] https://dev.suckless.narkive.com/mEex8nff/cannot-run-st#post3 https://dev.suckless.narkive.com/mEex8nff/cannot-run-st#post...

Y_Y 2y ago
I had a look at your links, and I think the assertion that the people involved in Suckless are National Socialists is insufficiently supported. I don't know these people outside their software, but if you're going to accuse someone of being part of some reviled political group I think you should have something stronger than "they went on a hike carrying torches around the time some extremist group had a march with torches".
- sunshowers 2y ago
  Personally, I would avoid even the appearance of impropriety by simply never going on a hike carrying around torches. Headlamps are better anyway.
  - Y_Y 2y ago
    Isn't that mad though? I went on a couple of torch walks years ago before there was a an "alt" right and thought nothing of it, it was some apolitical fun activity friends invited me to. No Ody had flags or anything to shout. To think that you can spoil that by having a couple of hundred weird outsiders in Charlottesville associate themselves with a similar torch!
    - sunshowers 2y ago
      Yeah, well, that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes!
- spacechild1 2y ago
  Let's have a look at the pictures in https://suckless.org/conferences/2017/ https://suckless.org/conferences/2017/ Their t-shirts in the first picture are based on a popular neo-nazi sujet: https://media1.faz.net/ppmedia/aktuell/3215685722/1.10213069/default/ein-teilnehmer-des-marsches.jpg https://media1.faz.net/ppmedia/aktuell/3215685722/1.10213069... (HKNKRZ = Hakenkreuz = Swastika) The second picture could be easily mistaken for a typical neo-nazi torchlight march. Keep in mind that suckless are German and Germany has a certain history with torchlight marches... Not to mention the guy with the "SCKLSS" t-shirt and camo pants. A member once threw around the term "cultural marxism" which is a nazi term ("Kulturbolschewismus"). Again, these guys are German and certainly know the historic context. One member even used to send e-mails from a server with the hostname "Wolfsschanze" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf%27s_Lair https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf%27s_Lair). To me it is obvious that they play with neo-nazi imagery. Now, maybe they are not really nazis and just immature edgeloards, but the optics are still terrible. I'm from Austria and after seeing these pictures I wouldn't touch the project with a ten foot pole.
  - Y_Y 2y ago
    I can't claim any expertise on neo-nazi symbols, but that t-shirt looks to me like it's referencing the classic Run DMC logo ( https://images.app.goo.gl/LYUXcyncxNEHAmVbA https://images.app.goo.gl/LYUXcyncxNEHAmVbA ). I've seen loads of versions of it though, including leftie stuff like "FCK CPS". I understand that these things are obvious to you, but as an outsider it is hard to be convinced when there are (or seem to be) more parsimonious explanations for the signals you present.
    - spacechild1 2y ago
      > but that t-shirt looks to me like it's referencing the classic Run DMC logo D'oh! I didn't know that! My apologies to the guys from Run DMC :) You are also right that there have been lots of different variations. It seems like only recently it has been co-opted by German neonazis, see for example https://www.derwesten.de/politik/wie-dortmunder-neonazis-das-run-dmc-logo-missbrauchen-id11901373.html https://www.derwesten.de/politik/wie-dortmunder-neonazis-das.... That article is from 2016 and the suckless conference pictures are from 2017. (Side note: the logo happens to use the colors of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskriegsflagge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskriegsflagge, which might be another reason why it became popular with neonazis.) Look, if it were only the t-shirts, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Same for torchlit hikes, which are a German and Austrian tradition. But these pictures on the suckless website raise a few eyebrows, even if you don't know about the other stuff. > when there are (or seem to be) more parsimonious explanations for the signals you present. Unfortunately, that's the nature of dog whistles. There is plausible deniability for individual actions, but they paint a (more or less) clear picture when put into a broader context. I'm not sure even what would be the more parsimonious explanation for naming your e-mail server "Wolfsschanze" or throwing around terms like "cultural marxism". Oh, and then there is this lovely e-mail thread: https://web.archive.org/web/20190404153507/https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20181010.191925.ee1331b6.en.html https://web.archive.org/web/20190404153507/https://lists.dyn... > And WW2 was forced upon Germany, and the allied rejected all the numerous peace offerings from the German side. That's some really hardcore revisionist shit.

Y_Y 2y ago

I had a look at your links, and I think the assertion that the people involved in Suckless are National Socialists is insufficiently supported. I don't know these people outside their software, but if you're going to accuse someone of being part of some reviled political group I think you should have something stronger than "they went on a hike carrying torches around the time some extremist group had a march with torches".

sunshowers 2y ago
Personally, I would avoid even the appearance of impropriety by simply never going on a hike carrying around torches. Headlamps are better anyway.
- Y_Y 2y ago
  Isn't that mad though? I went on a couple of torch walks years ago before there was a an "alt" right and thought nothing of it, it was some apolitical fun activity friends invited me to. No Ody had flags or anything to shout. To think that you can spoil that by having a couple of hundred weird outsiders in Charlottesville associate themselves with a similar torch!
  - sunshowers 2y ago
    Yeah, well, that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes!
spacechild1 2y ago
Let's have a look at the pictures in https://suckless.org/conferences/2017/ https://suckless.org/conferences/2017/ Their t-shirts in the first picture are based on a popular neo-nazi sujet: https://media1.faz.net/ppmedia/aktuell/3215685722/1.10213069/default/ein-teilnehmer-des-marsches.jpg https://media1.faz.net/ppmedia/aktuell/3215685722/1.10213069... (HKNKRZ = Hakenkreuz = Swastika) The second picture could be easily mistaken for a typical neo-nazi torchlight march. Keep in mind that suckless are German and Germany has a certain history with torchlight marches... Not to mention the guy with the "SCKLSS" t-shirt and camo pants. A member once threw around the term "cultural marxism" which is a nazi term ("Kulturbolschewismus"). Again, these guys are German and certainly know the historic context. One member even used to send e-mails from a server with the hostname "Wolfsschanze" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf%27s_Lair https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf%27s_Lair). To me it is obvious that they play with neo-nazi imagery. Now, maybe they are not really nazis and just immature edgeloards, but the optics are still terrible. I'm from Austria and after seeing these pictures I wouldn't touch the project with a ten foot pole.
- Y_Y 2y ago
  I can't claim any expertise on neo-nazi symbols, but that t-shirt looks to me like it's referencing the classic Run DMC logo ( https://images.app.goo.gl/LYUXcyncxNEHAmVbA https://images.app.goo.gl/LYUXcyncxNEHAmVbA ). I've seen loads of versions of it though, including leftie stuff like "FCK CPS". I understand that these things are obvious to you, but as an outsider it is hard to be convinced when there are (or seem to be) more parsimonious explanations for the signals you present.
  - spacechild1 2y ago
    > but that t-shirt looks to me like it's referencing the classic Run DMC logo D'oh! I didn't know that! My apologies to the guys from Run DMC :) You are also right that there have been lots of different variations. It seems like only recently it has been co-opted by German neonazis, see for example https://www.derwesten.de/politik/wie-dortmunder-neonazis-das-run-dmc-logo-missbrauchen-id11901373.html https://www.derwesten.de/politik/wie-dortmunder-neonazis-das.... That article is from 2016 and the suckless conference pictures are from 2017. (Side note: the logo happens to use the colors of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskriegsflagge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskriegsflagge, which might be another reason why it became popular with neonazis.) Look, if it were only the t-shirts, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. Same for torchlit hikes, which are a German and Austrian tradition. But these pictures on the suckless website raise a few eyebrows, even if you don't know about the other stuff. > when there are (or seem to be) more parsimonious explanations for the signals you present. Unfortunately, that's the nature of dog whistles. There is plausible deniability for individual actions, but they paint a (more or less) clear picture when put into a broader context. I'm not sure even what would be the more parsimonious explanation for naming your e-mail server "Wolfsschanze" or throwing around terms like "cultural marxism". Oh, and then there is this lovely e-mail thread: https://web.archive.org/web/20190404153507/https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20181010.191925.ee1331b6.en.html https://web.archive.org/web/20190404153507/https://lists.dyn... > And WW2 was forced upon Germany, and the allied rejected all the numerous peace offerings from the German side. That's some really hardcore revisionist shit.