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This is why Apple, and more recently Google, create systems where they don't have access to your unencrypted data on their servers. > Google Maps is changing t

This is why Apple, and more recently Google, create systems where they don't have access to your unencrypted data on their servers. > Google Maps is changing the way it handles your location data. Instead of backing up your data to the cloud, Google will soon store it locally on your device. https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/5/24172204/google-maps-delete-location-history-timeline https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/5/24172204/google-maps-delet... You can't be forced to hand over data on your servers that you don't have access to, warrant or no. The UK wants to make this workaround illegal on an international basis.

pmontra 2y ago
> You can't be forced to hand over data on your servers that you don't have access to, warrant or no. But you can be forced to record and store that data even if you don't want to.
- GeekyBear 2y ago
  Which is why Apple takes the stance that the users device shouldn't be sending data to the mothership at all, if it isn't absolutely necessary. Compare Apple Maps and Google Maps. Google initially hoovered up all your location data and kept it forever. They learned from Waze that one use case for location data was keeping your map data updated. Apple figured out how to accomplish the goal of keeping map data updated without storing private user data that could be subject to a subpoena. > “We specifically don’t collect data, even from point A to point B,” notes Cue. “We collect data — when we do it — in an anonymous fashion, in subsections of the whole, so we couldn’t even say that there is a person that went from point A to point B. The segments that he is referring to are sliced out of any given person’s navigation session. Neither the beginning or the end of any trip is ever transmitted to Apple. Rotating identifiers, not personal information, are assigned to any data sent to Apple... Apple is working very hard here to not know anything about its users. https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-from-the-ground-up/?guccounter=1 https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-f...
  - acka 2y ago
    Google or Apple could be forced by authorities to perform correlation on the map tiles being requested by users under investigation. Not as accurate as GPS coordinates but probably useful nonetheless. One more reason to prefer offline maps for those who value privacy.
    - GeekyBear 2y ago
      Given that you can browse map data for any location, not just where you happen to be, I'm betting that triangulation data from your carrier would be more accurate.
      - acka 2y ago
        Sure, triangulation of carrier signals could lead to more accurate position estimates, but if the carrier isn't based in the US they are under no obligation to make this data available to US authorities. Apple and Google are based in the US so are bound by the CLOUD Act to provide any and all data they have upon request, no matter where in the world it is being collected or stored.
Gatorguy 2y ago
Small correction. Google had "created a system where they don't have access to your data on their servers" a couple of years BEFORE Apple. Android 10 introduced it in 2019.
- GeekyBear 2y ago
  Google didn't announce plans to stop storing a copy of user location data on their servers until the middle of last year. See the story linked above. They didn't announce that they could no longer access user location data on their servers to respond to geofence warrants until the last quarter of 2024.
  - Gatorguy 2y ago
    We're talking iCloud and data encryption compared to Google's Android Cloud E2EE, and you're doing maps.
    - GeekyBear 2y ago
      Were talking about protecting your personal data from government overreach, and Google's entire business model is to collect as much of your personal data as possible and store it on their servers to make ad sales more profitable. Apple does its best not to collect personal data in the first place.

pmontra 2y ago

> You can't be forced to hand over data on your servers that you don't have access to, warrant or no. But you can be forced to record and store that data even if you don't want to.

GeekyBear 2y ago
Which is why Apple takes the stance that the users device shouldn't be sending data to the mothership at all, if it isn't absolutely necessary. Compare Apple Maps and Google Maps. Google initially hoovered up all your location data and kept it forever. They learned from Waze that one use case for location data was keeping your map data updated. Apple figured out how to accomplish the goal of keeping map data updated without storing private user data that could be subject to a subpoena. > “We specifically don’t collect data, even from point A to point B,” notes Cue. “We collect data — when we do it — in an anonymous fashion, in subsections of the whole, so we couldn’t even say that there is a person that went from point A to point B. The segments that he is referring to are sliced out of any given person’s navigation session. Neither the beginning or the end of any trip is ever transmitted to Apple. Rotating identifiers, not personal information, are assigned to any data sent to Apple... Apple is working very hard here to not know anything about its users. https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-from-the-ground-up/?guccounter=1 https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-f...
- acka 2y ago
  Google or Apple could be forced by authorities to perform correlation on the map tiles being requested by users under investigation. Not as accurate as GPS coordinates but probably useful nonetheless. One more reason to prefer offline maps for those who value privacy.
  - GeekyBear 2y ago
    Given that you can browse map data for any location, not just where you happen to be, I'm betting that triangulation data from your carrier would be more accurate.
    - acka 2y ago
      Sure, triangulation of carrier signals could lead to more accurate position estimates, but if the carrier isn't based in the US they are under no obligation to make this data available to US authorities. Apple and Google are based in the US so are bound by the CLOUD Act to provide any and all data they have upon request, no matter where in the world it is being collected or stored.

Gatorguy 2y ago

Small correction. Google had "created a system where they don't have access to your data on their servers" a couple of years BEFORE Apple. Android 10 introduced it in 2019.

GeekyBear 2y ago
Google didn't announce plans to stop storing a copy of user location data on their servers until the middle of last year. See the story linked above. They didn't announce that they could no longer access user location data on their servers to respond to geofence warrants until the last quarter of 2024.
- Gatorguy 2y ago
  We're talking iCloud and data encryption compared to Google's Android Cloud E2EE, and you're doing maps.
  - GeekyBear 2y ago
    Were talking about protecting your personal data from government overreach, and Google's entire business model is to collect as much of your personal data as possible and store it on their servers to make ad sales more profitable. Apple does its best not to collect personal data in the first place.