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Yes, Ukraine can fulfill the role of West Germany during the cold war. That means we have to stop the hot war, which just gets people killed and has caused at

Yes, Ukraine can fulfill the role of West Germany during the cold war. That means we have to stop the hot war, which just gets people killed and has caused at least 10 million refugees all over Europe. So, like Germany, it can give up territories in the East for practical reasons. The fortifications need to be build, the borders need to be secured and Ukraine has to be armed. Ukraine can then live well like Germany and Austria (not in NATO) during the cold war. Continuing the hot war is insane.

aredox 2y ago
And Ukraine gets to keep the Russian territories it holds? And also Ukraine gets under a Nuclear umbrella? The US was already supposed to protect Ukraine's borders according to the Budapest memorandum. What proof do you have the US will now commit to protect Ukraine like it protected West Germany during the Cold War?
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
Refugees is another way of saying "demographic infusion". Europe is in such desperate need of immigration to offset their population decline. And Russians/Ukrainians are generally a lot better at integrating that Middle Eastern muslims or Africans because of the religious divide. In the short run if I was the EU I would send troops to comprehensively defeat the Russians in Ukraine, including taking Crimea back, and then take Belarus. The westernization of Belarus and Ukraine would make a mighty wall of defense against Russia and allow the EU to wait out the fall of Putin and the massive chaos it will cause.
- deleted 2y ago
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- hollerith 2y ago
  Poland and Romania also make a mighty wall of defense against Russia without causing an expected tens of millions of deaths like your plan would cause. Till the invasion of Ukraine, I did not know so many people were so eager to kill young men and civilians.
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
    Radical pacifism cannot stand up to depraved aggression. Putin is a ghoul that sends prisoners and "lesser" ethnicities to their deaths in meat waves assaults in Ukraine. He looks at Soviets machine gunning their own retreating underequipped death assaults as the proper way to run an army. He steals children, attacks civilians, bombs nuclear plants, mocks your leaders, threatens nuclear armageddon. Look, you fight him in Ukraine, or you fight in Eastern Europe, or you fight him on your home soil. You honor your democratic oaths and commitments to alliance and protection, or you cowardly abandon your allies to Putin. There is no magic land where no soldiers die in this age. The 75 years of pax americana post-WWII peace is over. The current "peace" accord is appeasement and imperial robbery by the US. Russia will simply use it to learn, restock, marshal forces, and reattack in 2-5 years, only a moron wouldn't see that. Putin's stated strategic goals are to attack the Baltics and Poland at a minimum, and if he successfully does that with a still functioning army, he will proceed westward until he is stopped. If we really cared about not spilling blood, NATO would have provided unrestrained aerial superiority and bombing to nullify all Russian artillery, missiles, and bombing, and brought their logistics to a halt. Instead we chose to arm Ukraine with the minimum amount of resistance and annoyance to drain both the Ukrainian and Russian forces. We live in interesting times.
    - hollerith 2y ago
      >There is no magic land where no soldiers die in this age. During the 4 decades of the Cold War, Finland and Austria studiously avoided joining NATO to avoid provoking the Soviet Union and no soldiers died.
      - mopsi 2y ago
        The unprovoked nature of Russian invasion of Ukraine utterly discredited this long-standing approach to national security and Finland abandoned it. Share of Finnish adults saying that they agree with their country seeking NATO membership: Nov 1991 ... 22% Feb 1994 ... 25% Dec 2000 ... 20% Mar 2014 ... 30% Oct 2021 ... 24% Oct 2022 ... 85% Finland joined NATO on 4 April 2023.
pjc50 2y ago
The war will continue until Russia decides it ends. And that's not going to happen with an armed Ukraine; one of their alleged justifications for the war was precisely that Ukraine was becoming too well defended.

aredox 2y ago

And Ukraine gets to keep the Russian territories it holds? And also Ukraine gets under a Nuclear umbrella? The US was already supposed to protect Ukraine's borders according to the Budapest memorandum. What proof do you have the US will now commit to protect Ukraine like it protected West Germany during the Cold War?

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

Refugees is another way of saying "demographic infusion". Europe is in such desperate need of immigration to offset their population decline. And Russians/Ukrainians are generally a lot better at integrating that Middle Eastern muslims or Africans because of the religious divide. In the short run if I was the EU I would send troops to comprehensively defeat the Russians in Ukraine, including taking Crimea back, and then take Belarus. The westernization of Belarus and Ukraine would make a mighty wall of defense against Russia and allow the EU to wait out the fall of Putin and the massive chaos it will cause.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hollerith 2y ago
Poland and Romania also make a mighty wall of defense against Russia without causing an expected tens of millions of deaths like your plan would cause. Till the invasion of Ukraine, I did not know so many people were so eager to kill young men and civilians.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  Radical pacifism cannot stand up to depraved aggression. Putin is a ghoul that sends prisoners and "lesser" ethnicities to their deaths in meat waves assaults in Ukraine. He looks at Soviets machine gunning their own retreating underequipped death assaults as the proper way to run an army. He steals children, attacks civilians, bombs nuclear plants, mocks your leaders, threatens nuclear armageddon. Look, you fight him in Ukraine, or you fight in Eastern Europe, or you fight him on your home soil. You honor your democratic oaths and commitments to alliance and protection, or you cowardly abandon your allies to Putin. There is no magic land where no soldiers die in this age. The 75 years of pax americana post-WWII peace is over. The current "peace" accord is appeasement and imperial robbery by the US. Russia will simply use it to learn, restock, marshal forces, and reattack in 2-5 years, only a moron wouldn't see that. Putin's stated strategic goals are to attack the Baltics and Poland at a minimum, and if he successfully does that with a still functioning army, he will proceed westward until he is stopped. If we really cared about not spilling blood, NATO would have provided unrestrained aerial superiority and bombing to nullify all Russian artillery, missiles, and bombing, and brought their logistics to a halt. Instead we chose to arm Ukraine with the minimum amount of resistance and annoyance to drain both the Ukrainian and Russian forces. We live in interesting times.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    >There is no magic land where no soldiers die in this age. During the 4 decades of the Cold War, Finland and Austria studiously avoided joining NATO to avoid provoking the Soviet Union and no soldiers died.
    - mopsi 2y ago
      The unprovoked nature of Russian invasion of Ukraine utterly discredited this long-standing approach to national security and Finland abandoned it. Share of Finnish adults saying that they agree with their country seeking NATO membership: Nov 1991 ... 22% Feb 1994 ... 25% Dec 2000 ... 20% Mar 2014 ... 30% Oct 2021 ... 24% Oct 2022 ... 85% Finland joined NATO on 4 April 2023.

pjc50 2y ago

The war will continue until Russia decides it ends. And that's not going to happen with an armed Ukraine; one of their alleged justifications for the war was precisely that Ukraine was becoming too well defended.