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FWIW, Poland and the USA get very similar results from their K-12 systems, both rank quite well compared to the average OECD country: http://www.oecd.org/pisa/4

FWIW, Poland and the USA get very similar results from their K-12 systems, both rank quite well compared to the average OECD country: http://www.oecd.org/pisa/46643496.pdf http://www.oecd.org/pisa/46643496.pdf For some reason there is a perception that American schools are failing, but I don't see it in the data.

TimGebhardt 14y ago
Shh, if you keep pointing out that the system isn't broken then people will think they don't need to always continually try to make it better.
muhfuhkuh 14y ago
"For some reason there is a perception that American schools are failing, but I don't see it in the data." It's been a linchpin to the ultra-conservative and libertarian arguments for "free market"-izing education in the US. The opinion being "well, school sucks when I grew up and/or for my child currently, and it's because government is involved". They point to other countries and their educational superiority (erroneously thinking that the countries' respective governments are somehow not at all involved in education when, in fact, the top-achieving systems have similar if not identical systems as the US). Let's not even discuss how little they care for teacher's unions, how much teachers get paid (way too much is the current sentiment), and how all teachers are as lazy as unionized NYC construction workers on their lunch break because schools have summer breaks. They point to a combination private schools and vouchers for the poor as the ultimate solution to our educational woes, some even going so far as saying let the dumbest, poorest, and difficult kids opt out of school by not making K-12 school mandatory.
- hcribkram 14y ago
  Time out, I am the post author here and I never inferred anything about free market anything. In fact, I have written extensively on this topic and have stated on many occasions that education needs to remain public in order to provide fair opportunities for all. However, that does not mean that US public schools are without problems. Teachers actually should receive higher salaries, but they also need to be better qualified. Unions are not an evil that diminishes educational outcomes for students, but they do need to recognize that teacher standards have steadily eroded over the past few decades instead of protecting the status quo. I could go on with statistics and such, but you can read the full post here: http://birch.co/post/10127535253/the-us-education-conundrum http://birch.co/post/10127535253/the-us-education-conundrum
- streptomycin 14y ago
  It's also been a linchpin to the liberal argument for more funding for education, despite a lack of results http://www.human20.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/200909_blog_coulson1.jpg http://www.human20.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/200909_blo... Basically everyone with a political ideology wants to believe that US schools are horrible.
lkrubner 14y ago
I'm fairly sure the reference points matter here. Business leaders, and policy makers, in the USA look at Germany and Japan as reference points. They don't look at Greece or Italy or Spain. Opinion makers in the USA tend to think that the USA should strive to be the best at everything. For them, being slightly better than the OECD average is a failure, not a triumph. Policy makers in the USA tend to worry about the trade deficit, and they wonder why the USA seems less competitive in international trade than Germany or Japan. This anxiety manifests in various ways, and one of those ways is the attitude toward the schools.
rdtsc 14y ago
The perception is vis-a-vis the perception of economic, social and political status. Continuing with the pun on the title, everyone expects more from America and America in turn also expects more from itself. When they hear "FWIW, Poland and the USA get very similar results from their K-12 systems" they can say "Oh good for Poland. This used to be a communist country and now it is as good as US in Education" or they can also say "Holy crap. America is now on par with an Eastern European country that was ruled by communists just couple of decades ago, how sad, we could do some much better". Now, note, I don't endorse this binary view. I want all the countries to have good education, especially my country. Also, I grew up in Eastern Europe and can also say that my high-school education there emphasized math, physics, literature and English (or other foreign language) a lot more than my American high-school (I also went to an American high-school for a one year btw, so I can compare a bit). I came to US in the 10th grade and was taking math courses along with high-school seniors and tutoring them. I was only above average at home in those subjects. Overall, what I think works well for US high-schools: * Kids have a choice already to specialize because they can each take an individualized curriculum. Some took more literature and English some took more physics. That's great. * Frequent and objective testing. A lot of objective testing and quizzes. Keeps you on pace. * More approachable and more informal teachers. Teachers that care seem to be really good. Yeah there are the ones that don't. But I noticed in my other high school even teachers that cared acted pretty un-approachable and just showed their care by signing you up for math and physics contests (Olympiads) we call them. What doesn't work well for US high-schools: * Too many what I see pointless after-school activities, too much emphasis on sports. Are all these kids going to become professional athletes. So why are they spending all afternoons bumping into each other at high speeds and getting injured. * Social scene is fucked up and detracts from learning. Because there are so many activities and so much individualized choice on what classes to take. People form cliques and end up being not very approachable. There isn't a group of people you get to know and spend your whole day and years with. There was just less drama and mental effort spent on who is friends with whom and who cheated on whom. * Too much emphasis on passive media aids (video) for teaching. There was a lot of "here watch this video kids". * Too much emphasis on group projects. On a certain meta level they are great because it teaches everyone how group function and don't function. How to take advantage of others and how others get to take advantage of you. There were very few times when groups are evenly matched and everyone puts a fair share of work and end up with a great result. What doesn't work well for East European high-schools: * Corruption to the core. Everyone cheats. Teachers take bribes. Principles take bigger bribes. Kids cheat from each other. Those that don't cheat get left behind because those that cheat make the exams and test look like a piece of cake, so those get harder and harder ("Oh so it looks like everyone in this 10th grade knows about derivatives so well. Let's bring on the double integrals then!")

TimGebhardt 14y ago

Shh, if you keep pointing out that the system isn't broken then people will think they don't need to always continually try to make it better.

muhfuhkuh 14y ago

"For some reason there is a perception that American schools are failing, but I don't see it in the data." It's been a linchpin to the ultra-conservative and libertarian arguments for "free market"-izing education in the US. The opinion being "well, school sucks when I grew up and/or for my child currently, and it's because government is involved". They point to other countries and their educational superiority (erroneously thinking that the countries' respective governments are somehow not at all involved in education when, in fact, the top-achieving systems have similar if not identical systems as the US). Let's not even discuss how little they care for teacher's unions, how much teachers get paid (way too much is the current sentiment), and how all teachers are as lazy as unionized NYC construction workers on their lunch break because schools have summer breaks. They point to a combination private schools and vouchers for the poor as the ultimate solution to our educational woes, some even going so far as saying let the dumbest, poorest, and difficult kids opt out of school by not making K-12 school mandatory.

hcribkram 14y ago
Time out, I am the post author here and I never inferred anything about free market anything. In fact, I have written extensively on this topic and have stated on many occasions that education needs to remain public in order to provide fair opportunities for all. However, that does not mean that US public schools are without problems. Teachers actually should receive higher salaries, but they also need to be better qualified. Unions are not an evil that diminishes educational outcomes for students, but they do need to recognize that teacher standards have steadily eroded over the past few decades instead of protecting the status quo. I could go on with statistics and such, but you can read the full post here: http://birch.co/post/10127535253/the-us-education-conundrum http://birch.co/post/10127535253/the-us-education-conundrum
streptomycin 14y ago
It's also been a linchpin to the liberal argument for more funding for education, despite a lack of results http://www.human20.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/200909_blog_coulson1.jpg http://www.human20.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/200909_blo... Basically everyone with a political ideology wants to believe that US schools are horrible.

lkrubner 14y ago

I'm fairly sure the reference points matter here. Business leaders, and policy makers, in the USA look at Germany and Japan as reference points. They don't look at Greece or Italy or Spain. Opinion makers in the USA tend to think that the USA should strive to be the best at everything. For them, being slightly better than the OECD average is a failure, not a triumph. Policy makers in the USA tend to worry about the trade deficit, and they wonder why the USA seems less competitive in international trade than Germany or Japan. This anxiety manifests in various ways, and one of those ways is the attitude toward the schools.

rdtsc 14y ago

The perception is vis-a-vis the perception of economic, social and political status. Continuing with the pun on the title, everyone expects more from America and America in turn also expects more from itself. When they hear "FWIW, Poland and the USA get very similar results from their K-12 systems" they can say "Oh good for Poland. This used to be a communist country and now it is as good as US in Education" or they can also say "Holy crap. America is now on par with an Eastern European country that was ruled by communists just couple of decades ago, how sad, we could do some much better". Now, note, I don't endorse this binary view. I want all the countries to have good education, especially my country. Also, I grew up in Eastern Europe and can also say that my high-school education there emphasized math, physics, literature and English (or other foreign language) a lot more than my American high-school (I also went to an American high-school for a one year btw, so I can compare a bit). I came to US in the 10th grade and was taking math courses along with high-school seniors and tutoring them. I was only above average at home in those subjects. Overall, what I think works well for US high-schools: * Kids have a choice already to specialize because they can each take an individualized curriculum. Some took more literature and English some took more physics. That's great. * Frequent and objective testing. A lot of objective testing and quizzes. Keeps you on pace. * More approachable and more informal teachers. Teachers that care seem to be really good. Yeah there are the ones that don't. But I noticed in my other high school even teachers that cared acted pretty un-approachable and just showed their care by signing you up for math and physics contests (Olympiads) we call them. What doesn't work well for US high-schools: * Too many what I see pointless after-school activities, too much emphasis on sports. Are all these kids going to become professional athletes. So why are they spending all afternoons bumping into each other at high speeds and getting injured. * Social scene is fucked up and detracts from learning. Because there are so many activities and so much individualized choice on what classes to take. People form cliques and end up being not very approachable. There isn't a group of people you get to know and spend your whole day and years with. There was just less drama and mental effort spent on who is friends with whom and who cheated on whom. * Too much emphasis on passive media aids (video) for teaching. There was a lot of "here watch this video kids". * Too much emphasis on group projects. On a certain meta level they are great because it teaches everyone how group function and don't function. How to take advantage of others and how others get to take advantage of you. There were very few times when groups are evenly matched and everyone puts a fair share of work and end up with a great result. What doesn't work well for East European high-schools: * Corruption to the core. Everyone cheats. Teachers take bribes. Principles take bigger bribes. Kids cheat from each other. Those that don't cheat get left behind because those that cheat make the exams and test look like a piece of cake, so those get harder and harder ("Oh so it looks like everyone in this 10th grade knows about derivatives so well. Let's bring on the double integrals then!")