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College can also open your eyes to a vast array of scholarly disciplines and help you become a well-rounded, cultured, and thoughtful person. It doesn't always

College can also open your eyes to a vast array of scholarly disciplines and help you become a well-rounded, cultured, and thoughtful person. It doesn't always work, and it's not the only way to reach this end, but it's not a bad option.

slurgfest 14y ago
And that's cool, but it isn't a necessity if you are being employed to do a particular job. (Because of the glut of liberal arts BAs, there aren't a ton of jobs for "well-rounded, cultured, and thoughtful" - though those might be little bonuses)
- crygin 14y ago
  I'm going to give some personal experience about why I only hire people with degrees, which I realize is not data. If anyone can think of a way to actually evaluate this at a statistical level, I'd be very interested. I've worked with a large number of people both with and without college degrees, in the US and abroad. And I've found that it's not the degree that counts -- it's the liberal education (I mean that in the sense of a well-rounded education, and many college graduates are not receiving that, particularly at colleges/universities where they're groomed for a role in software engineering). People with a broad background aren't just more inclined to problem-solve, they're better at it -- they come up with more innovative and subtle solutions, they're better able to manage their own time, etc. Time and time again I see issues being kicked around until they land at someone with a "well-rounded" background, who actually is willing to examine and solve the problem rather than looking at it from a single perspective. I don't doubt that one can arrive at this state of mind without attending college, or that some who attend college fail to get there. But I want smart people who are able and willing to problem-solve, and in my experience college graduates have a serious edge.
randomdata 14y ago
You can only do so much in a limited span of time. Each person has to optimize for what they hold important. Not going to college was the best thing that ever happened to my career. I got to spend my "college years" optimizing for business, which put me miles ahead of my peers who went to school. I now earn significantly more and get to work on more interesting projects (by my metric, at least) than my friends who even have PhDs in the field. But that came with a cost. I missed out on a lot of non-career qualities by not having the college experience. I don't feel either direction is wrong, you just have to choose which is more important to you.
jchrisa 14y ago
Really smart hackers should go to college, if they want to, but it is hard to find a college that won't be boring for them. There are a few out there, usually small. Don't study computers, it's a waste of time, you already know them. Study something else, like Art or History or Philosophy. Keep hacking on the side (because you can't help it, you're a hacker).
- freehunter 14y ago
  I actually sort of followed this advice. When I started college, I was working towards a CS degree. I already knew as much programming as I wanted to learn and quickly got bored with it. Some friends recommended I switch majors to something I didn't know and actually still had an interest in learning. So I switched to networking. Now I'm employed in information security and I keep my coding only on projects I want to work on. It's actually sound advice (and like all advice, you should think it through fully), if you know something already why pay $80k to get a piece of paper to prove it? Many people are employed in jobs they know but didn't major in.
- Androsynth 14y ago
  This comment shouldn't be in the gray. We, as hackers, shouldn't place as much importance as we do in our college diplomas. Very few of use are computer scientists. Very few of us learned as much in 4 years as you did at your first startup (or even hacking on the side, for that matter)
  - nandemo 14y ago
    It's one thing to say that we shouldn't place so much importance in diplomas in the context of hiring. It's quite another thing to claim that "really smart hackers" will be bored if they take Computer Science at MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Oxford, etc.
- tikhonj 14y ago
  I agree on not studying computers. Happily, despite the odd name, Computer Science isn't actually about computers. Or a science. Even if you "know computers" chances are you don't know computer science. And if you do there's always abstract mathematics :). Also, I think the advice to go to a small college is exactly backwards. If you're really smart and can teach yourself, go to a large research university. Compared to little colleges, these universities focus quite a bit more on novel research and less on teaching students. The professors are chosen on their aptitude in the field, not as teachers. So you get to work on ground-breaking stuff with brilliant people, but have less instructional support. This is a great compromise if you are something of an autodidact. After all, the classes are not the most important thing you should get out of a university education. It's working with other extremely smart people, doing novel and nontrivial research and being able to pursue very specialized and advanced topics of interest. And the classes that are the most important--the most advanced ones, naturally--are the sort that aren't offered at little colleges anyhow. For example, I'm going to take a class on program synthesis next semester; I don't think I'd have that same option at a small college, and it's certainly a very exciting topic! Besides, an engineering, mathematics or CS program at a good research university is more than challenging enough for anyone. This sort of education is a great complement to the average hacker--it ensures you have breadth even in topics you don't like (CPU design may be icky, but I had to learn the basics all the same :P), gives you depth in the subjects you do like and supplies a very helpful sort of systematic organization. It really helps draw connections between otherwise disparate areas of study and gives you a good base to pursue more advanced interests.

slurgfest 14y ago

And that's cool, but it isn't a necessity if you are being employed to do a particular job. (Because of the glut of liberal arts BAs, there aren't a ton of jobs for "well-rounded, cultured, and thoughtful" - though those might be little bonuses)

crygin 14y ago
I'm going to give some personal experience about why I only hire people with degrees, which I realize is not data. If anyone can think of a way to actually evaluate this at a statistical level, I'd be very interested. I've worked with a large number of people both with and without college degrees, in the US and abroad. And I've found that it's not the degree that counts -- it's the liberal education (I mean that in the sense of a well-rounded education, and many college graduates are not receiving that, particularly at colleges/universities where they're groomed for a role in software engineering). People with a broad background aren't just more inclined to problem-solve, they're better at it -- they come up with more innovative and subtle solutions, they're better able to manage their own time, etc. Time and time again I see issues being kicked around until they land at someone with a "well-rounded" background, who actually is willing to examine and solve the problem rather than looking at it from a single perspective. I don't doubt that one can arrive at this state of mind without attending college, or that some who attend college fail to get there. But I want smart people who are able and willing to problem-solve, and in my experience college graduates have a serious edge.

randomdata 14y ago

You can only do so much in a limited span of time. Each person has to optimize for what they hold important. Not going to college was the best thing that ever happened to my career. I got to spend my "college years" optimizing for business, which put me miles ahead of my peers who went to school. I now earn significantly more and get to work on more interesting projects (by my metric, at least) than my friends who even have PhDs in the field. But that came with a cost. I missed out on a lot of non-career qualities by not having the college experience. I don't feel either direction is wrong, you just have to choose which is more important to you.

jchrisa 14y ago

Really smart hackers should go to college, if they want to, but it is hard to find a college that won't be boring for them. There are a few out there, usually small. Don't study computers, it's a waste of time, you already know them. Study something else, like Art or History or Philosophy. Keep hacking on the side (because you can't help it, you're a hacker).

freehunter 14y ago
I actually sort of followed this advice. When I started college, I was working towards a CS degree. I already knew as much programming as I wanted to learn and quickly got bored with it. Some friends recommended I switch majors to something I didn't know and actually still had an interest in learning. So I switched to networking. Now I'm employed in information security and I keep my coding only on projects I want to work on. It's actually sound advice (and like all advice, you should think it through fully), if you know something already why pay $80k to get a piece of paper to prove it? Many people are employed in jobs they know but didn't major in.
Androsynth 14y ago
This comment shouldn't be in the gray. We, as hackers, shouldn't place as much importance as we do in our college diplomas. Very few of use are computer scientists. Very few of us learned as much in 4 years as you did at your first startup (or even hacking on the side, for that matter)
- nandemo 14y ago
  It's one thing to say that we shouldn't place so much importance in diplomas in the context of hiring. It's quite another thing to claim that "really smart hackers" will be bored if they take Computer Science at MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Oxford, etc.
tikhonj 14y ago
I agree on not studying computers. Happily, despite the odd name, Computer Science isn't actually about computers. Or a science. Even if you "know computers" chances are you don't know computer science. And if you do there's always abstract mathematics :). Also, I think the advice to go to a small college is exactly backwards. If you're really smart and can teach yourself, go to a large research university. Compared to little colleges, these universities focus quite a bit more on novel research and less on teaching students. The professors are chosen on their aptitude in the field, not as teachers. So you get to work on ground-breaking stuff with brilliant people, but have less instructional support. This is a great compromise if you are something of an autodidact. After all, the classes are not the most important thing you should get out of a university education. It's working with other extremely smart people, doing novel and nontrivial research and being able to pursue very specialized and advanced topics of interest. And the classes that are the most important--the most advanced ones, naturally--are the sort that aren't offered at little colleges anyhow. For example, I'm going to take a class on program synthesis next semester; I don't think I'd have that same option at a small college, and it's certainly a very exciting topic! Besides, an engineering, mathematics or CS program at a good research university is more than challenging enough for anyone. This sort of education is a great complement to the average hacker--it ensures you have breadth even in topics you don't like (CPU design may be icky, but I had to learn the basics all the same :P), gives you depth in the subjects you do like and supplies a very helpful sort of systematic organization. It really helps draw connections between otherwise disparate areas of study and gives you a good base to pursue more advanced interests.