7 ms·

Ask HN: Tired of startups – want a normal job. Help

99 points by mertleee 2y ago

All but the first few years out of school I spent the better part of my 20's working in startups. I've networked well enough, had some ups and some downs. Initially just working for startups as an IC eventually moving into product / technical product and later actually founding / co-founding two companies. One fizzled out, the other was acquired in a way I sort of made money. Recently the market has been a bit of a mess and although I took a break to avoid burnout I'm realizing startups (at least with my level of ability and intelligence) are likely just not a great way to make money. I'm newly 30 and starting to realize I kind of just want a life and a reasonable tech salary. Nothing insane, just something that could support me in a b-tier city with my own place where I have enough time to actually have a girlfriend and well... a normal life. I'm freaking out because the market is beyond fucked and it seems like my only real choice if I want to "grow" as an engineer / product guy is founding another company. Fortunately I got into some solid accelerators in the valley with a friend from a few years back. It feels good, but at the same time, I feel old and just want a normal job. Even shooting around what new college grads are getting would be fine ($120-140k). I feel like a freaking loser given my age and my relative career stagnation / my inability to actually turn my mildly above average skills into any real money. Last time I interviewed, my litany of previous startups seemed to totally kneecap my chances of getting return callbacks led alone offers. Any advice where I should look next - I feel like between AI and offshoring I might just need to do something else all-together. Any advice here is appreciated :)

bigfatkitten 2y ago
Assuming you're eligible to hold a security clearance (citizenship and nothing controversial in your background), have you considered contracting to the intelligence community? Excellent money, work on super interesting problems that you wouldn't get to in the private sector. Excellent WLB, work can't follow you home, and can't ever be offshored.
- NotDEA 2y ago
  How does one get started doing this?
  - bigfatkitten 2y ago
    Hardest part of getting your foot in the door is getting the clearance in the first place. I'd normally say the easiest way is to get hired as a government employee, go through the vetting process, then bounce a year or two after you get your ticket. With the way things are going with the US Government at the moment, I'm not so sure now.
- pingvishnu 2y ago
  Does this still hold good with the DOGE intervention?
LIzzyytujghf 2y ago
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freediver 2y ago
What is preventing you from finding such normal job? I went through a similar phase, and after my previous company was acquired, i very much enjoyed working at a corporation. But the 'startup bug' is a thing and that lasted two years, now I am back at doing a startup and so far still enjoying it (5 years into my startup 2.0 life).
- mertleee 2y ago
  Mostly just not being able to land a job. The market is so competitive / flooded at this point that it seems like normalcy isn't an option. Last time I lined up 5-6 interviews (after easily 4x applications) only two turned into interviews, one final round that ultimately became a rejection. I couldn't tell if it wasn't a fit or if I just sucked.
  - gedy 2y ago
    > I couldn't tell if it wasn't a fit or if I just sucked. It's just an abnormally bad market right now and companies are passing on good candidates left and right. I highly doubt it's all you.
  - Volundr 2y ago
    I've been out of the market for a bit, but last time I was in it, it was really terrible. I think it's better than it was a few years ago, but no where near where it was. It took me over 6 months to land a role, where previously I generally had a few offers within a month or so. For the market, your hit rate sounds good. You don't suck, it's just like that out there at the moment. The fact that you made it to a final round means someone clearly thought you were capable of doing the job. My best advice is if you have any niche skills try to capitalize on those. Your average Java/.NET/JavaScript developer role is seeing literally thousands of applicants. The more you can get off the beaten path the better. If you know some less common programming language or technology you may well find you have better luck searching for jobs looking for that even if it's not your core competency.
  - kojeovo 2y ago
    20-24 applications isn't that much in the grand scheme. less than 1 a day for a month. keep trying man
gedy 2y ago
You would be fine with some looking assuming you have common tech stack experience, also do you have a technical degree? In either case the leet code nonsense is probably unavoidable so worth some time as well. Have you tried who's hiring and who wants to be hired posts here?
- mertleee 2y ago
  Yeah, I have a CS degree from a well known (non ivy) four year university in Boston. I've had mixed experience with HN who's hiring. Frankly I'd be uninterested in working for anything earlier than a series C startup. I'd frankly rather work for a company with steady and strong revenue and a culture that's sustainable. Not looking forward to the leetcode nonsense, but it would probably take a few months to get up to speed where I could pass interviews. Given my resume is sort of all over the place (many 1yr stints) curious of your thoughts on where I should look? I'm tempted to primarily aim for product roles since pure IC roles just make me dread working at this point.
  - gedy 2y ago
    > pure IC roles just make me dread working at this point Thanks for info, is this part of your challenge? You stated you want a normal job and tech salary, but is it that you really don't want or enjoy coding? In either case, I'd recommend prioritizing your wants, e.g. location, technologies, role to help you narrow a list of potential places. The market does suck but there are jobs and with CS degree and some experience I honestly think you'll be just fine. Don't worry about the short stints and just have a reasonable explanation about this if asked.
    - Benjamin_Dobell 2y ago
      Not the OP, but I can definitely relate. Pure IC roles terrify me. I've been CTO and Head of Engineering of several start-ups, also made some money when one sold — yeah, I'm a lot like the OP. But leetcode is deplorable to me, when I hire (which I've done plenty of) I never made candidates perform such nonsense. Not wanting a pure IC role definitely doesn't mean you don't enjoy coding. It usually means you don't want to be stuck building things that are unimportant. When you're working at a company that's making mistakes and you've the experience to know better, it's painful just sitting idly by. I know a lot of people can switch off their care factor, but some of us can't. For example, I love coding, in the past 3 months I built an unofficial companion app for The Bazaar, an upcoming game. I built a back-end (Next.js, Vercel, Cloudflare, Supabase, PSQL), front-end (React), insight platform, packaged Windows and macOS desktop apps (Electron), reverse engineered the game (C#/Unity) and its networking layer. I was processing 300,000 player events a day. https://bizarre.gg/runs/00493ccf-5b96-523c-beb4-06e8154cc158 https://bizarre.gg/runs/00493ccf-5b96-523c-beb4-06e8154cc158 (view on desktop, click on the right) https://bizarre.gg/meta https://bizarre.gg/meta I was recently forced to shut down this project by the game company (as were other 3rd party devs working on stuff for the game). I was offered a role at the game company, which they reneged on at the last moment. Perhaps because in my role acceptance email, I wrote about how I am keen to take ownership (in the accountability sense) and get involved with developer advocacy, tech blogs etc. I suspect this spooked them because they "don't hire beyond Senior", which is obviously an absurd practice that's typically put in place by inexperienced/insecure leadership. Typically companies justify this with "we promote within", which is a massive disservice to your staff, because it just means your staff never have access to mentors to help them grow.
marshughes 2y ago
First of all, don't see yourself as a loser! Having worked in startups for so many years, the experience you've accumulated is a huge asset. The previous startup experiences might have affected your interviews because you didn't highlight the transferable skills you gained from those experiences, such as rapid learning, complex problem - solving, and adaptability. You might as well focus on these general skills in your resume and interviews and downplay the label of startup failure. As for the job - hunting direction, apart from traditional tech companies, some emerging industries, such as green technology and medical technology, also have growing demand for people with technical and product experience, and the competition is relatively less intense. Have you considered them? Also, you mentioned the salary level of new graduates. In fact, with your experience, you can definitely strive for a higher salary. Have you studied how to highlight your experience advantages in job - hunting to match positions that meet your expected salary better?
- mertleee 2y ago
  Thanks! Everyone keeps calling it an "asset", but so far I've only been able to get meager results (monetarily) in startups using what I've learned. Frankly, I wish I was less adaptable and was just a solid IC who could actually pass technical interviews. My intended direction is somewhere in technical product, but I've really only done it for around a year and frankly I'd need to build a bit of a narrative to be competitive with other product hires. Ideally I'd like to stay somewhere relatively tech centric because I don't want to go back to uni - but curious where you think I should look? LinkedIn / some recruiters have yielded a few leads - but again, the market is beyond cooked at the moment.
  - hsuduebc2 2y ago
    I liked banks or similiar institutions. They are kinda boring technically, but you get to know interesting insights and problems. You get tired of it after some time but there's no stress at all. Don't be stressed. You'll eventually find something. You are not a loser. Situation now is now simply not good anywhere.
  - bigiain 2y ago
swatcoder 2y ago
Frankly, few mature companies need a "engineer/product guy" and your split experience will work against you unless you make it clear that you're earnestly committed to one of those roles in particular (are you?), or you specifically look for work close to sales at B2B or contract development firms, where the combination of those skills is an asset when selling and sometimes prototyping custom work. You're selling a product right now (yourself) and you need a clear understanding of what the product is. It's not a typical engineer and it's not a typical product person. It's not even an practiced corporate drone. So don't expect to sell it as one of those things and don't distract yourself applying for work that needs them (your resume will be ignored in this market). Instead, figure out what niche value your background brings and focus directly on selling that to the customers (employers) that would need it.
Apreche 2y ago
Work at a non-tech company. Every company has computers. I’ve worked in small business loans, ticket sales, music publishing and others.
- jazz9k 2y ago
  Exactly this. I've worked for non-tech companies for over a decade and the work load is always low.
deepGem 2y ago
There's no way you are a loser. 1 successful exit, flaunt it man. No one cares about the exit value. The fact that you had a successful exit is a huge win. I would say that you can certainly strive for a 250-300K salary in the bay area at least. You should try Walmart for an IC role. Glacial pace of working and a shit ton of bureaucracy, but looks like it might just be the right environment for you now. Other companies that I can think of along similar lines - JPM, Cisco, Arista or any of the traditional companies. Your best bet is to network with the hiring managers. I think if you just meet them and speak about your experiences in an event or something you might be able to articulate your experiences better than just in a resume. Also I have found that drafting your resume and asking ChatGPT or another LLM to refine the wording really works. These LLMs know the ATS or resume scanning keywords and will tailor your resume accordingly. Good luck
Moto7451 2y ago
There are plenty of startups and “startups” that are about a decade old and would benefit from someone who has both an understanding of how real startups work, how to ship things, and also has enough experience to be reliable in what is no longer an early stage company, and maybe isn’t really a startup anymore. A lot of these companies make reasonable money and pay well enough. Not $100k and “$10MM in stock if it works out”, but probably between 170-300 depending on where they’re at, the structure, etc and it’ll be real cash money. The company will probably do something boring but very necessary. You’ll make great friends and have fun. Keep an eye out, see what’s out there.
- bigiain 2y ago
  This is true, but around here a lot of those jobs are what one of my professional circles calls "adult supervision", and I feel 30 is a bit too young to be targeting those.
  - hx8 2y ago
    At 30 you aren't the adult supervision hire, you're the guy the adult supervision hire brings on as a lieutenant.
    - bigiain 2y ago
      Yeah. Lots of startup experiences is a good indicator of lots of technical war stories, and having been "that guy" or part of a team where a bunch of seemingly workable approaches to problems failed spectacularly is a _very_ valuable skillset to bring to the table with a bunch of fresh grads or early career devs. You probably need another decade to get the same sort of collections of war stories about managing people and teams and higher management, which is another skillset the "adult supervision" needs. Having said that, I've seen teams of fresh grads and bootcamp trained devs, where some 30 year old adult supervision might have saved projects or companies from expensive or existential disasters. "No, we are NOT going to build this critical project's frontend on the JavaScript framework you and two of your bootcamp buddies spent the last 4 weekends writing."
SashaRuvin 2y ago
Can you share more about your experience? What type of tech are you experienced with, what industries, etc
tsunego 2y ago
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bdcravens 2y ago
> I feel like a freaking loser given my age and my relative career stagnation / my inability to actually turn my mildly above average skills into any real money. There's a lot of noise out there that tells us we're supposed to get rich off of entrepreneurship or VC money, and not enough telling of the truth that those success stories are pretty rare. No one who is doing something they at least minimally enjoy and not breaking their body doing it, and getting paid in the top 20% of income earners, is a loser.
- necovek 2y ago
  I've read that bit differently: they are unable to get that "regular" job that would put them into the "top 20% of income earners", and that's why they feel like a loser. They don't feel like a loser for their entrepreneurship career even if it never netted the retirement money before the age of 30.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    For reference $120K a year puts you in the top 20% of income earners. https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ I’m sure they could find any Enterprise developer job in any major city in the US to do that.
    - mertleee 2y ago
      I agree, but I don't see it as a bad thing to be alarmed or concerned that the rates I'm going for at 30 have collapsed to what new college grads (not even good ones) are seeking right out of school. It's always easy to say "I'm doing well compared to a guy sweeping streets for a living" - nothing against sweeping streets for a living.
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        There is an old saying “comparison is the enemy of joy”. I go to work to exchange labor for money and then exchange that money for goods and services. I don’t earn money to appease my ego.
CobaltFire 2y ago
Plenty of Gov programming jobs in the lower CoL areas. City of Fresno is hiring a few in the $90-110k range, which goes a heck of a lot further there than in the Bay, while being close enough to hybrid work if you decide to (I have friends there who work at Google, Nvidia, etc. hybrid). Gov work can be boring, but it's rarely stressful.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  That's about to change. Doge.
  - throwaway638637 2y ago
    That's for the feds, not for state govts.
  - CobaltFire 2y ago
    Local and State hire independently of Federal.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    I hear sf pays public employees extremely well. I think they just got a pay raise recently!
    - dolmen 2y ago
      What about rents?
Schnitz 2y ago
Do you have a good story that will resonate with hiring managers on why you are making the switch from small to big? Most won’t be excited to hire the guy that pushed hard for years and now “wants to coast”. I’m not saying that’s you, but it can easily come across like that.
- Trufa 2y ago
  "While I do feel like I am proactive, I feel I can do my best work when the structure around me is solid enough, my productivity goes up when I can consistently produce work and avoid the extreme ups and downs of a startup."
- muzani 2y ago
  I think plenty do. I'm a startup guy and corporates have been asking when I want to coast for a while. Personally, I'd rather work hard writing code than writing performance reviews and such.
rednafi 2y ago
I worked at two startups before realizing that they weren’t what I wanted out of life. Work is important to me, but so is life. I was duped into this vision of entrepreneurship and making it big in startups. While every startup founder likes to spin the story of wanting to be a unicorn, in practice, few do. I happened to work at ones with an insane workload and a less-than-survivable payout. I interviewed like crazy and landed a position at one of those well-known companies. Large companies have their fair share of problems, but it suits my lifestyle. I do my work diligently and then clock out. It’s liberating to know that if I don’t respond to a pager, the world isn’t going to end and some third-grade CEO/CTO won’t scream in my face. Different people want different things out of life, and I made a vow never to join a startup or scale-up with fewer than a thousand employees.
dkkergoog 2y ago
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czbond 2y ago
My suggestion is this: Founders often underwhelm on paper, but knock it out of the park when in person. Network in your city with leadership of companies at any stage. Example: Last month, I was just messing around with an idea, told my vision for it in 5 years to someone that works at a company that should do $400M revenue this year, $800M in 2 years. He had never met his CEO.... his CEO heard my thoughts and offered to FLY cross country out to meet me... someone who doesn't even work there.
curious_cat_163 2y ago
> I feel like a freaking loser given my age and my relative career stagnation / my inability to actually turn my mildly above average skills into any real money. It is okay to feel like that for a bit. But, this story that you are telling yourself is not going to help you if you keep on telling this. Whenever I have felt negatively about myself like that in the past, it has helped to stack some wins -- even if little ones -- to get out of the rut. So, if you want to try to be an engineer, start building things using tools/tech that you are interested in and put them in the open source. Or better yet, help out some open source projects that you respect and have benefited from in the past, if you can. Hiring managers (and I have been one) look for real evidence of skills mentioned in the resume and a well-rounded Github repo increases the likelihood of a callback in any kind of market. Stack some little wins there. OR, if you want to be a product person, do the equivalent of stacking some wins in that realm. I have very little experience in that space so maybe someone else here can identify a concrete thing or two that you could do to attract hiring managers in that line of work.
- mertleee 2y ago
  thanks ;)
treve 2y ago
If you want a job, start interviewing and prepare yourself or interviews. If you didn't get the job, reflect on your gaps. Maybe you are unhireable (I doubt it), but you need to get data. Some places will dismiss having a ton of 1 year stints, but if you make it to the interview stage your resume matters less.
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singpolyma3 2y ago
Did you make any friends at any previous job? Where are they all now? Referrals and nepotism are the keys to hiring in most places.
robust-cactus 2y ago
I'd just describe this job market as competitive and every company appears to be looking for some specific persona now. Believe it or not you could thrive in this job market. For you, I'd say you'll have figure out what you love to do, figure out how to speak positively/enthusiastically about your previous experience, and find companies that value what you bring to the table. AI is not taking all the jobs yet (seems clear that it produces garbage code that's untenable at scale), and neither is off-shoring (it's very out of trend). Question - what can you actually control about companies you're applying to? The answer is not a whole lot, so why stress about it? What you can control is a funnel: 1. How many jobs you've applied to 2. What quality those companies are 3. How much they're aligned with your skill set Other than that, you're stressing about stuff you can't change. Let it go, gain inner peace. There's a lot to unpack in your post, step back examine the stories you're telling yourself. Are they actually real? Is there something more nuanced going on?
- dgfitz 2y ago
  > I'd just describe this job market as competitive… Most job markets are “competitive” most of the time. The tech market is fucked right now. Have you poked around?
- mertleee 2y ago
  I'm starting with companies that appear to be relatively good fits, by no means just mass applying to anything that matches a skill / tool. Ideally at least series-B all in all, within the month prior to joining my friend probably applied to about 50 roles.
deviner7575 2y ago
140k? What job is that?
stego-tech 2y ago
> I feel like between AI and offshoring I might just need to do something else all-together. Let me address this one upfront, both for you and for the other job seekers out there fretting over the same thing. AI won't replace a competent Engineer anytime soon, and offshoring/outsourcing is a continuous part of any business cycle. While tech companies are very much in the early days of outsourcing and offshoring, non-technical companies are actually at the opposite end - looking to bring talent back in house after years of outsourcing with decreasing satisfaction or results. It's just a part of the cycle, really, if you're looking to transition into "stable" work. Companies will always be chasing fads that claim to make everything better while also lowering costs, be it AI, some hot new tech hub in a cheaper economy, leveraging MSPs, or just flatly trimming headcount and "increasing velocity". You're gonna have to learn to roll with those rhythms and punches if you want to thrive. > I feel like a freaking loser given my age and my relative career stagnation / my inability to actually turn my mildly above average skills into any real money. Imposter syndrome sucks. From my perspective as one of these technical "normies", I'd consider you more successful by simple fact you actually sold a company - not an easy feat! Think of it as just switching to a different "lane", with different expectations; you're not a failure, you're just growing in a different way with different challenges than you're used to. With all that being said, and without really understanding your specific skills/fields, here's some generalized advice about the "normal" tech world: First, figure out where you want to work in terms of "vertical", as tech is often divided into "enterprise" or "business" technology (as in, the folks supporting how business gets done), and "product" technology (the folks making and supporting the way the business makes money). Some companies may try to combine the two, but they're often like oil and water in that they don't mix well. * BizTech is often a slower pace because you generally want people to do work, not figure out how to do work, and so there's a stronger emphasis on stability, reliability, and repeatability. * Product tech is more fast-paced and focused on solving new problems, building new things, and delivering on roadmaps. This sounds like it might be more directly transferable skills-wise since you're coming from Startup World, but that market is a hot mess right now thanks to Big Tech layoffs and AI hype. Next, identify where your existing skills fit within that vertical, and rewrite your resume to highlight those capabilities. * Focus on the specific technical achievements with all the buzzwords you used along the way. Don't pitch stuff like "delivered an app with 10k concurrent users and five-nines uptime on a budget of $X", because most companies don't care about your company. They want relatable achievements, like "Built ArgoCD Pipeline to orchestrate production Kubernetes clusters using GitHub Actions." * For developers, focus on languages known and share your GitHub. For Infrastructure/Network/Storage/Systems folks, focus on vendor suites and how you stitched products together with automations. * Two big topics in companies right now are cost discipline and flexibility in hires. Play up both, since you have them from your startup days. Highlight cross-domain shoestring budget deliverables in particular, companies will eat that up as it shows you're both multi-disciplined and cost-conscious. * Consider some certifications to shore up your bone fides, especially if you're going into BizTech/IT. Those almost always get preferential treatment by employers, at least for interviews. When you get interviewed, make sure you're asking questions about the company's operations (within reason). This shows you're aware of the requirements of the business world. Stuff like: * Is there an on-call rotation? * What's the organization's roadmap over the next two years? * What challenges are they having? (Which you can hopefully then explain how your skills help them address that challenge) * For multi-national firms, how do they support their global workforce or customer base? Is it a follow-the-sun model, shift rotations, or something else? The most important thing to remember is that you're no longer selling a company, you're effectively selling yourself. You need to identify what problems they're facing, and then position yourself as the product to address their ills. One more thing: leverage your existing network to find some good recruiters, as they can help you get your foot in the door and your resume at the top of the pile. Some recruiters focus on specific industries, while others focus on specific roles. You can do this! The "normie" technology job market is still forecast for substantial growth globally and domestically over the next decade, especially in Engineering and Architecture. Keep at it, and you'll find your way in due time.
flashgordon 2y ago
First of all congrats: You actually got "some" success in a startup ... In your twenties... Thereby seeing most of it and getting the regrets out of your system. These are amazing combinations. Which means you know how to call out the BS when you get approached by Hussle pornos. Second as a newly 30 year old for perspective if you were to join a faang (or a pre IPO startup) even as a junior, and are willing to stay put, learn corporate speak/politics etc (assuming you want) you actually have a shot at 3-4 promotions in 10 years. Which is really good by the time you get to 40. For context 4 promos gets you to senior staff at Goog/Meta. Again that is really good and 10 years is neither a Hussle or slack.
1jreuben1 2y ago
Spend a few years in big corp, and you will miss working in startups - the grass is always greener on the other side !
RamblingCTO 2y ago
May I suggest something else: a lifestyle business? I'm in a similar position but absolutely can't see myself slaving away with bullshit business stuff. I want to be productive but have enough freedom and time to enjoy the (very quick) passing of time. So I'm trying to build a business that supports my life but nothing more. No moonshot, no grand gestures, just something simple worth doing.
andyish 2y ago
You've worked at and founded startups and so you must have done sales and marketing. This is no different, you're just pitching yourself. Understand who your audience is and what they're looking for and don't forget, presentation is everything. Positioning yourself correctly, too low and you'll never get past the sea of grads. Distill your history down so it appears you've had a more stable career history. A random HR bod is going to review your CV and they do not care how many startups you've founded or accelerators you got accepted into. If you've got loads of entries in your career history they're going to stick you on the no pile. Regardless of how it is internally, corporations don't like lone wolves or individual contributors. They have 'company values' and want someone who works well in a team, has done some mentoring, works well with others, understands the processes, etc etc etc (that is until you start then it's all about delivery). I'd try positioning your CV to appeal to those values with the technical skills to back it up. In summary - lose the fluff from cv/applications - present a more stable career history - emphasis on teamwork, working with other departments, mentoring And, I wouldn't worry about AI, offshoring - yes, AI - no. I'm still waiting to be shown an AI-generated SaaS app with real users, or even a functioning tool that's not just a clone of Flappy Bird.
- mertleee 2y ago
  Thanks for the advice. I've always sort of struggled putting myself in the shoes of someone who would read my resume and then pick me over another candidate. Cover letters used to help with this - but I don't think even HR folks read these anymore...
thecleaner 2y ago
OP, these startups can't offer you a job because they don't have the money to pay you. Plain and simple. Its not related to your skills in any way.
iainctduncan 2y ago
I work in technical diligence, so I look at companies getting bought by PE funds – not VC funds – but PE funds looking for boring, unglamorous, reliable year-over-year investments. There are tons of these companies out there. TONS. A lot of them pay their seniors very well, most pay them well, and they look like nice places to have a "normal job". But they don't get press attention, they don't get talked about on socials (inluding HN), and they don't advertise the same way as others. A lot of them you wouldn't even think of as "software companies", but they build software that makes them the best in some oddball domain programmers never think of, so they are normal, profitable businesses that don't run out burn and crash in balls of fire laying everyone off. My advice would be broaden your skill set to encompass a wider range of both the stack and of less hip technology, and then start looking and advertising outside the normal startup-heavy places. They are totally out there.
- mertleee 2y ago
  Interesting, other than linkedin cold messages do you have any suggestions for finding leads in the space? My only reservation with going this route is technical / programming folks always seem to be second class to anyone else at finance orgs / hedge funds.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  In my experience PE owned firms are the worse. They aren’t interested in growth. They are solely interested in cost cutting and financial engineering.
  - iainctduncan 2y ago
    "PE owned firms" is a very big tent. I'm 100% sure the ones you describe exist, but the ones we deal with aren't like that at all. Which presumably is because the situation you describe doesn't warrant technical diligence. The vast majority of software acquisitions are now PE, and the funds we deal with want to see year over year growth (~20%) before selling in about 5 years.
    - 2y ago
danjl 2y ago
Startups are a terrible way to make money. It is far far easier to make money at a larger company than it is at a startup. It's even worse if you start the company yourself. The chances that you'll ever make money are pretty small, and getting to a regular salary can take 3-7 years. Even the chances of making life-changing quantities of money are much smaller. I've been working in this industry for 40 years and all the people I know who are rich did it at big companies, most recently at Nvidia, earlier at Apple, Sun, Facebook and similar. I know tons of startup founders. Almost none of them made significant money. It's more like authors and artists - start a new company because you are driven by an invisible force and you want to do things that you can't do anywhere else. Maybe you want to run your company differently. Maybe you want to work on something that nobody has figured out how to make profitable. A great reason to take a job at a startup is that you like working with small teams and You think you can learn from your coworkers. Do it because you have no other choice, not because you want to make money.
- cloudedcordial 2y ago
  > Startups are a terrible way to make money. ...for most people. Even if the company got sold or had an IPO, only the very early employees made life-changing money. There's no guarantee if the company will be at those stages. The news bias towards people who made life-changing money, but does not tend to report the "invisible force".
- icedchai 2y ago
  This is all true. But if you're working at a startup only to make money, you're probably doing it wrong.
  - mertleee 2y ago
    Well, I enjoy - enojoyed - working at startups far more than faang for quite some time. The stress was easier to navigate and I felt like I had more levers to learn and grow than I did at Faang. However, times have changed - I want different things in life now. The point of a job is to make money consistently and provide some level of calm. Optimizing for that now since I'm tired of making blind startup bets.
codegeek 2y ago
"Even shooting around what new college grads are getting would be fine ($120-140k)" Wait, what ? Other than may be Silicon Valley or NYC (and thats a stretch), where would a new college grad get $120-140K in America ? Where ?
- mertleee 2y ago
  This is quite common even in austin - heck even at half decent startups. Also, with inflation $120k is a joke relative to even my adjusted starting salary out of college.
mindwork 2y ago
> I feel like a freaking loser given my age and my relative career stagnation / my inability to actually turn my mildly above average skills into any real money I would concentrate on this. Why are you feeling this way? Is it possibly because you compare yourself to others? Or you compare yourself to the "ideal world" that lives in your head based on the things that you read on the internet and experience of others? I'm sure you have lots of positives in your life right now. Are you starving? Do you have roof over your head? Do you struggle from any health problems or mental diseases? Are you addicted to anything? Do you have friends? Do you spend enough time with them? Can you exercise? Can you pay your bills? Do you have savings to whether turbulent times? I bet if you switch focus to something that you already have and where you already at it will help you. Switching mindset where you think not from backtracking from Ideal situation back to your life, but to switch that to start thinking from where are you now, and what are the next smallest step that you can take?
- mertleee 2y ago
  I appreciate the perspective - but in my opinion continually lowering your standards (at this point below even average) to feel okay with my situation is what I've done in the past and it's only resulted in a bigger hole / closing off more options. I don't want to make a million dollars a year - I'd just like a normal 9-5 even 9-7 job that provides enough to live a somewhat normal below average life. It's insane that in 2025 this is seen as an entitlement or something that shouldn't be relatively common.
financetechbro 2y ago
I think a good fit for you would be a PE backed software company. More specifically “growth PE,” these are firms that are typically coming in to bootstrapped or founder owned companies and are essentially a wallet for the company to leverage for inorganic and organic growth. I think this fits your background and provides a more stable outlook, specially if you focus on PEs that only invest in profitable companies or low burn companies. They will also be able to provide reasonable compensation
- mertleee 2y ago
  Curious what platforms I should attempt to network with? I have no idea where to even start with this but it sounds really interesting.
rekabis 2y ago
>I'm freaking out because the market is beyond fucked I’ve noticed that many company execs are turning to AI in order to solve one of their most pressing problems: how to eliminate wages without eliminating production. Things are going to get _a lot worse_ before they get any better. And that’s assuming that we don’t end up in a neo-feudalistic society where the 0.01% live like kings in unimaginable wealth while the 99.99% live in abject poverty and shackled to jobs like slaves, because if you aren’t profitable to someone you are fit only to die.
trumpvoter 2y ago
Freelance/contract - if you have mildly above average skills and a network, you should be able to find these contracts and they will pay for a mild lifestyle. I truly believe you won't be able to find a full time job because your preconception is half-retirement. You want to just be stuck at a level of a new grad salary - no company wants anyone that is stuck, they want people that will grow. Once you've chosen to stop growing, freelance is probably the best bet since companies, big or small, don't care about growth fron their contractors. At least, that's been what I settled on after startup burnout.

99 points by mertleee 2y ago

bigfatkitten 2y ago

Assuming you're eligible to hold a security clearance (citizenship and nothing controversial in your background), have you considered contracting to the intelligence community? Excellent money, work on super interesting problems that you wouldn't get to in the private sector. Excellent WLB, work can't follow you home, and can't ever be offshored.

NotDEA 2y ago
How does one get started doing this?
- bigfatkitten 2y ago
  Hardest part of getting your foot in the door is getting the clearance in the first place. I'd normally say the easiest way is to get hired as a government employee, go through the vetting process, then bounce a year or two after you get your ticket. With the way things are going with the US Government at the moment, I'm not so sure now.
pingvishnu 2y ago
Does this still hold good with the DOGE intervention?

LIzzyytujghf 2y ago

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freediver 2y ago

What is preventing you from finding such normal job? I went through a similar phase, and after my previous company was acquired, i very much enjoyed working at a corporation. But the 'startup bug' is a thing and that lasted two years, now I am back at doing a startup and so far still enjoying it (5 years into my startup 2.0 life).

mertleee 2y ago
Mostly just not being able to land a job. The market is so competitive / flooded at this point that it seems like normalcy isn't an option. Last time I lined up 5-6 interviews (after easily 4x applications) only two turned into interviews, one final round that ultimately became a rejection. I couldn't tell if it wasn't a fit or if I just sucked.
- gedy 2y ago
  > I couldn't tell if it wasn't a fit or if I just sucked. It's just an abnormally bad market right now and companies are passing on good candidates left and right. I highly doubt it's all you.
- Volundr 2y ago
  I've been out of the market for a bit, but last time I was in it, it was really terrible. I think it's better than it was a few years ago, but no where near where it was. It took me over 6 months to land a role, where previously I generally had a few offers within a month or so. For the market, your hit rate sounds good. You don't suck, it's just like that out there at the moment. The fact that you made it to a final round means someone clearly thought you were capable of doing the job. My best advice is if you have any niche skills try to capitalize on those. Your average Java/.NET/JavaScript developer role is seeing literally thousands of applicants. The more you can get off the beaten path the better. If you know some less common programming language or technology you may well find you have better luck searching for jobs looking for that even if it's not your core competency.
- kojeovo 2y ago
  20-24 applications isn't that much in the grand scheme. less than 1 a day for a month. keep trying man

gedy 2y ago

You would be fine with some looking assuming you have common tech stack experience, also do you have a technical degree? In either case the leet code nonsense is probably unavoidable so worth some time as well. Have you tried who's hiring and who wants to be hired posts here?

mertleee 2y ago
Yeah, I have a CS degree from a well known (non ivy) four year university in Boston. I've had mixed experience with HN who's hiring. Frankly I'd be uninterested in working for anything earlier than a series C startup. I'd frankly rather work for a company with steady and strong revenue and a culture that's sustainable. Not looking forward to the leetcode nonsense, but it would probably take a few months to get up to speed where I could pass interviews. Given my resume is sort of all over the place (many 1yr stints) curious of your thoughts on where I should look? I'm tempted to primarily aim for product roles since pure IC roles just make me dread working at this point.
- gedy 2y ago
  > pure IC roles just make me dread working at this point Thanks for info, is this part of your challenge? You stated you want a normal job and tech salary, but is it that you really don't want or enjoy coding? In either case, I'd recommend prioritizing your wants, e.g. location, technologies, role to help you narrow a list of potential places. The market does suck but there are jobs and with CS degree and some experience I honestly think you'll be just fine. Don't worry about the short stints and just have a reasonable explanation about this if asked.
  - Benjamin_Dobell 2y ago
    Not the OP, but I can definitely relate. Pure IC roles terrify me. I've been CTO and Head of Engineering of several start-ups, also made some money when one sold — yeah, I'm a lot like the OP. But leetcode is deplorable to me, when I hire (which I've done plenty of) I never made candidates perform such nonsense. Not wanting a pure IC role definitely doesn't mean you don't enjoy coding. It usually means you don't want to be stuck building things that are unimportant. When you're working at a company that's making mistakes and you've the experience to know better, it's painful just sitting idly by. I know a lot of people can switch off their care factor, but some of us can't. For example, I love coding, in the past 3 months I built an unofficial companion app for The Bazaar, an upcoming game. I built a back-end (Next.js, Vercel, Cloudflare, Supabase, PSQL), front-end (React), insight platform, packaged Windows and macOS desktop apps (Electron), reverse engineered the game (C#/Unity) and its networking layer. I was processing 300,000 player events a day. https://bizarre.gg/runs/00493ccf-5b96-523c-beb4-06e8154cc158 https://bizarre.gg/runs/00493ccf-5b96-523c-beb4-06e8154cc158 (view on desktop, click on the right) https://bizarre.gg/meta https://bizarre.gg/meta I was recently forced to shut down this project by the game company (as were other 3rd party devs working on stuff for the game). I was offered a role at the game company, which they reneged on at the last moment. Perhaps because in my role acceptance email, I wrote about how I am keen to take ownership (in the accountability sense) and get involved with developer advocacy, tech blogs etc. I suspect this spooked them because they "don't hire beyond Senior", which is obviously an absurd practice that's typically put in place by inexperienced/insecure leadership. Typically companies justify this with "we promote within", which is a massive disservice to your staff, because it just means your staff never have access to mentors to help them grow.

marshughes 2y ago

First of all, don't see yourself as a loser! Having worked in startups for so many years, the experience you've accumulated is a huge asset. The previous startup experiences might have affected your interviews because you didn't highlight the transferable skills you gained from those experiences, such as rapid learning, complex problem - solving, and adaptability. You might as well focus on these general skills in your resume and interviews and downplay the label of startup failure. As for the job - hunting direction, apart from traditional tech companies, some emerging industries, such as green technology and medical technology, also have growing demand for people with technical and product experience, and the competition is relatively less intense. Have you considered them? Also, you mentioned the salary level of new graduates. In fact, with your experience, you can definitely strive for a higher salary. Have you studied how to highlight your experience advantages in job - hunting to match positions that meet your expected salary better?

mertleee 2y ago
Thanks! Everyone keeps calling it an "asset", but so far I've only been able to get meager results (monetarily) in startups using what I've learned. Frankly, I wish I was less adaptable and was just a solid IC who could actually pass technical interviews. My intended direction is somewhere in technical product, but I've really only done it for around a year and frankly I'd need to build a bit of a narrative to be competitive with other product hires. Ideally I'd like to stay somewhere relatively tech centric because I don't want to go back to uni - but curious where you think I should look? LinkedIn / some recruiters have yielded a few leads - but again, the market is beyond cooked at the moment.
- hsuduebc2 2y ago
  I liked banks or similiar institutions. They are kinda boring technically, but you get to know interesting insights and problems. You get tired of it after some time but there's no stress at all. Don't be stressed. You'll eventually find something. You are not a loser. Situation now is now simply not good anywhere.
- bigiain 2y ago

swatcoder 2y ago

Frankly, few mature companies need a "engineer/product guy" and your split experience will work against you unless you make it clear that you're earnestly committed to one of those roles in particular (are you?), or you specifically look for work close to sales at B2B or contract development firms, where the combination of those skills is an asset when selling and sometimes prototyping custom work. You're selling a product right now (yourself) and you need a clear understanding of what the product is. It's not a typical engineer and it's not a typical product person. It's not even an practiced corporate drone. So don't expect to sell it as one of those things and don't distract yourself applying for work that needs them (your resume will be ignored in this market). Instead, figure out what niche value your background brings and focus directly on selling that to the customers (employers) that would need it.

Apreche 2y ago

Work at a non-tech company. Every company has computers. I’ve worked in small business loans, ticket sales, music publishing and others.

jazz9k 2y ago
Exactly this. I've worked for non-tech companies for over a decade and the work load is always low.

deepGem 2y ago

There's no way you are a loser. 1 successful exit, flaunt it man. No one cares about the exit value. The fact that you had a successful exit is a huge win. I would say that you can certainly strive for a 250-300K salary in the bay area at least. You should try Walmart for an IC role. Glacial pace of working and a shit ton of bureaucracy, but looks like it might just be the right environment for you now. Other companies that I can think of along similar lines - JPM, Cisco, Arista or any of the traditional companies. Your best bet is to network with the hiring managers. I think if you just meet them and speak about your experiences in an event or something you might be able to articulate your experiences better than just in a resume. Also I have found that drafting your resume and asking ChatGPT or another LLM to refine the wording really works. These LLMs know the ATS or resume scanning keywords and will tailor your resume accordingly. Good luck

Moto7451 2y ago

There are plenty of startups and “startups” that are about a decade old and would benefit from someone who has both an understanding of how real startups work, how to ship things, and also has enough experience to be reliable in what is no longer an early stage company, and maybe isn’t really a startup anymore. A lot of these companies make reasonable money and pay well enough. Not $100k and “$10MM in stock if it works out”, but probably between 170-300 depending on where they’re at, the structure, etc and it’ll be real cash money. The company will probably do something boring but very necessary. You’ll make great friends and have fun. Keep an eye out, see what’s out there.

bigiain 2y ago
This is true, but around here a lot of those jobs are what one of my professional circles calls "adult supervision", and I feel 30 is a bit too young to be targeting those.
- hx8 2y ago
  At 30 you aren't the adult supervision hire, you're the guy the adult supervision hire brings on as a lieutenant.
  - bigiain 2y ago
    Yeah. Lots of startup experiences is a good indicator of lots of technical war stories, and having been "that guy" or part of a team where a bunch of seemingly workable approaches to problems failed spectacularly is a _very_ valuable skillset to bring to the table with a bunch of fresh grads or early career devs. You probably need another decade to get the same sort of collections of war stories about managing people and teams and higher management, which is another skillset the "adult supervision" needs. Having said that, I've seen teams of fresh grads and bootcamp trained devs, where some 30 year old adult supervision might have saved projects or companies from expensive or existential disasters. "No, we are NOT going to build this critical project's frontend on the JavaScript framework you and two of your bootcamp buddies spent the last 4 weekends writing."

SashaRuvin 2y ago

Can you share more about your experience? What type of tech are you experienced with, what industries, etc

tsunego 2y ago

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bdcravens 2y ago

> I feel like a freaking loser given my age and my relative career stagnation / my inability to actually turn my mildly above average skills into any real money. There's a lot of noise out there that tells us we're supposed to get rich off of entrepreneurship or VC money, and not enough telling of the truth that those success stories are pretty rare. No one who is doing something they at least minimally enjoy and not breaking their body doing it, and getting paid in the top 20% of income earners, is a loser.

necovek 2y ago
I've read that bit differently: they are unable to get that "regular" job that would put them into the "top 20% of income earners", and that's why they feel like a loser. They don't feel like a loser for their entrepreneurship career even if it never netted the retirement money before the age of 30.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  For reference $120K a year puts you in the top 20% of income earners. https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/ I’m sure they could find any Enterprise developer job in any major city in the US to do that.
  - mertleee 2y ago
    I agree, but I don't see it as a bad thing to be alarmed or concerned that the rates I'm going for at 30 have collapsed to what new college grads (not even good ones) are seeking right out of school. It's always easy to say "I'm doing well compared to a guy sweeping streets for a living" - nothing against sweeping streets for a living.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      There is an old saying “comparison is the enemy of joy”. I go to work to exchange labor for money and then exchange that money for goods and services. I don’t earn money to appease my ego.

CobaltFire 2y ago

Plenty of Gov programming jobs in the lower CoL areas. City of Fresno is hiring a few in the $90-110k range, which goes a heck of a lot further there than in the Bay, while being close enough to hybrid work if you decide to (I have friends there who work at Google, Nvidia, etc. hybrid). Gov work can be boring, but it's rarely stressful.

ninetyninenine 2y ago
That's about to change. Doge.
- throwaway638637 2y ago
  That's for the feds, not for state govts.
- CobaltFire 2y ago
  Local and State hire independently of Federal.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  I hear sf pays public employees extremely well. I think they just got a pay raise recently!
  - dolmen 2y ago
    What about rents?

Schnitz 2y ago

Do you have a good story that will resonate with hiring managers on why you are making the switch from small to big? Most won’t be excited to hire the guy that pushed hard for years and now “wants to coast”. I’m not saying that’s you, but it can easily come across like that.

Trufa 2y ago
"While I do feel like I am proactive, I feel I can do my best work when the structure around me is solid enough, my productivity goes up when I can consistently produce work and avoid the extreme ups and downs of a startup."
muzani 2y ago
I think plenty do. I'm a startup guy and corporates have been asking when I want to coast for a while. Personally, I'd rather work hard writing code than writing performance reviews and such.

rednafi 2y ago

I worked at two startups before realizing that they weren’t what I wanted out of life. Work is important to me, but so is life. I was duped into this vision of entrepreneurship and making it big in startups. While every startup founder likes to spin the story of wanting to be a unicorn, in practice, few do. I happened to work at ones with an insane workload and a less-than-survivable payout. I interviewed like crazy and landed a position at one of those well-known companies. Large companies have their fair share of problems, but it suits my lifestyle. I do my work diligently and then clock out. It’s liberating to know that if I don’t respond to a pager, the world isn’t going to end and some third-grade CEO/CTO won’t scream in my face. Different people want different things out of life, and I made a vow never to join a startup or scale-up with fewer than a thousand employees.

dkkergoog 2y ago

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czbond 2y ago

My suggestion is this: Founders often underwhelm on paper, but knock it out of the park when in person. Network in your city with leadership of companies at any stage. Example: Last month, I was just messing around with an idea, told my vision for it in 5 years to someone that works at a company that should do $400M revenue this year, $800M in 2 years. He had never met his CEO.... his CEO heard my thoughts and offered to FLY cross country out to meet me... someone who doesn't even work there.

curious_cat_163 2y ago

> I feel like a freaking loser given my age and my relative career stagnation / my inability to actually turn my mildly above average skills into any real money. It is okay to feel like that for a bit. But, this story that you are telling yourself is not going to help you if you keep on telling this. Whenever I have felt negatively about myself like that in the past, it has helped to stack some wins -- even if little ones -- to get out of the rut. So, if you want to try to be an engineer, start building things using tools/tech that you are interested in and put them in the open source. Or better yet, help out some open source projects that you respect and have benefited from in the past, if you can. Hiring managers (and I have been one) look for real evidence of skills mentioned in the resume and a well-rounded Github repo increases the likelihood of a callback in any kind of market. Stack some little wins there. OR, if you want to be a product person, do the equivalent of stacking some wins in that realm. I have very little experience in that space so maybe someone else here can identify a concrete thing or two that you could do to attract hiring managers in that line of work.

mertleee 2y ago
thanks ;)

treve 2y ago

If you want a job, start interviewing and prepare yourself or interviews. If you didn't get the job, reflect on your gaps. Maybe you are unhireable (I doubt it), but you need to get data. Some places will dismiss having a ton of 1 year stints, but if you make it to the interview stage your resume matters less.

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singpolyma3 2y ago

Did you make any friends at any previous job? Where are they all now? Referrals and nepotism are the keys to hiring in most places.

robust-cactus 2y ago

I'd just describe this job market as competitive and every company appears to be looking for some specific persona now. Believe it or not you could thrive in this job market. For you, I'd say you'll have figure out what you love to do, figure out how to speak positively/enthusiastically about your previous experience, and find companies that value what you bring to the table. AI is not taking all the jobs yet (seems clear that it produces garbage code that's untenable at scale), and neither is off-shoring (it's very out of trend). Question - what can you actually control about companies you're applying to? The answer is not a whole lot, so why stress about it? What you can control is a funnel: 1. How many jobs you've applied to 2. What quality those companies are 3. How much they're aligned with your skill set Other than that, you're stressing about stuff you can't change. Let it go, gain inner peace. There's a lot to unpack in your post, step back examine the stories you're telling yourself. Are they actually real? Is there something more nuanced going on?

dgfitz 2y ago
> I'd just describe this job market as competitive… Most job markets are “competitive” most of the time. The tech market is fucked right now. Have you poked around?
mertleee 2y ago
I'm starting with companies that appear to be relatively good fits, by no means just mass applying to anything that matches a skill / tool. Ideally at least series-B all in all, within the month prior to joining my friend probably applied to about 50 roles.

deviner7575 2y ago

140k? What job is that?

stego-tech 2y ago

> I feel like between AI and offshoring I might just need to do something else all-together. Let me address this one upfront, both for you and for the other job seekers out there fretting over the same thing. AI won't replace a competent Engineer anytime soon, and offshoring/outsourcing is a continuous part of any business cycle. While tech companies are very much in the early days of outsourcing and offshoring, non-technical companies are actually at the opposite end - looking to bring talent back in house after years of outsourcing with decreasing satisfaction or results. It's just a part of the cycle, really, if you're looking to transition into "stable" work. Companies will always be chasing fads that claim to make everything better while also lowering costs, be it AI, some hot new tech hub in a cheaper economy, leveraging MSPs, or just flatly trimming headcount and "increasing velocity". You're gonna have to learn to roll with those rhythms and punches if you want to thrive. > I feel like a freaking loser given my age and my relative career stagnation / my inability to actually turn my mildly above average skills into any real money. Imposter syndrome sucks. From my perspective as one of these technical "normies", I'd consider you more successful by simple fact you actually sold a company - not an easy feat! Think of it as just switching to a different "lane", with different expectations; you're not a failure, you're just growing in a different way with different challenges than you're used to. With all that being said, and without really understanding your specific skills/fields, here's some generalized advice about the "normal" tech world: First, figure out where you want to work in terms of "vertical", as tech is often divided into "enterprise" or "business" technology (as in, the folks supporting how business gets done), and "product" technology (the folks making and supporting the way the business makes money). Some companies may try to combine the two, but they're often like oil and water in that they don't mix well. * BizTech is often a slower pace because you generally want people to do work, not figure out how to do work, and so there's a stronger emphasis on stability, reliability, and repeatability. * Product tech is more fast-paced and focused on solving new problems, building new things, and delivering on roadmaps. This sounds like it might be more directly transferable skills-wise since you're coming from Startup World, but that market is a hot mess right now thanks to Big Tech layoffs and AI hype. Next, identify where your existing skills fit within that vertical, and rewrite your resume to highlight those capabilities. * Focus on the specific technical achievements with all the buzzwords you used along the way. Don't pitch stuff like "delivered an app with 10k concurrent users and five-nines uptime on a budget of $X", because most companies don't care about your company. They want relatable achievements, like "Built ArgoCD Pipeline to orchestrate production Kubernetes clusters using GitHub Actions." * For developers, focus on languages known and share your GitHub. For Infrastructure/Network/Storage/Systems folks, focus on vendor suites and how you stitched products together with automations. * Two big topics in companies right now are cost discipline and flexibility in hires. Play up both, since you have them from your startup days. Highlight cross-domain shoestring budget deliverables in particular, companies will eat that up as it shows you're both multi-disciplined and cost-conscious. * Consider some certifications to shore up your bone fides, especially if you're going into BizTech/IT. Those almost always get preferential treatment by employers, at least for interviews. When you get interviewed, make sure you're asking questions about the company's operations (within reason). This shows you're aware of the requirements of the business world. Stuff like: * Is there an on-call rotation? * What's the organization's roadmap over the next two years? * What challenges are they having? (Which you can hopefully then explain how your skills help them address that challenge) * For multi-national firms, how do they support their global workforce or customer base? Is it a follow-the-sun model, shift rotations, or something else? The most important thing to remember is that you're no longer selling a company, you're effectively selling yourself. You need to identify what problems they're facing, and then position yourself as the product to address their ills. One more thing: leverage your existing network to find some good recruiters, as they can help you get your foot in the door and your resume at the top of the pile. Some recruiters focus on specific industries, while others focus on specific roles. You can do this! The "normie" technology job market is still forecast for substantial growth globally and domestically over the next decade, especially in Engineering and Architecture. Keep at it, and you'll find your way in due time.

flashgordon 2y ago

First of all congrats: You actually got "some" success in a startup ... In your twenties... Thereby seeing most of it and getting the regrets out of your system. These are amazing combinations. Which means you know how to call out the BS when you get approached by Hussle pornos. Second as a newly 30 year old for perspective if you were to join a faang (or a pre IPO startup) even as a junior, and are willing to stay put, learn corporate speak/politics etc (assuming you want) you actually have a shot at 3-4 promotions in 10 years. Which is really good by the time you get to 40. For context 4 promos gets you to senior staff at Goog/Meta. Again that is really good and 10 years is neither a Hussle or slack.

1jreuben1 2y ago

Spend a few years in big corp, and you will miss working in startups - the grass is always greener on the other side !

RamblingCTO 2y ago

May I suggest something else: a lifestyle business? I'm in a similar position but absolutely can't see myself slaving away with bullshit business stuff. I want to be productive but have enough freedom and time to enjoy the (very quick) passing of time. So I'm trying to build a business that supports my life but nothing more. No moonshot, no grand gestures, just something simple worth doing.

andyish 2y ago

You've worked at and founded startups and so you must have done sales and marketing. This is no different, you're just pitching yourself. Understand who your audience is and what they're looking for and don't forget, presentation is everything. Positioning yourself correctly, too low and you'll never get past the sea of grads. Distill your history down so it appears you've had a more stable career history. A random HR bod is going to review your CV and they do not care how many startups you've founded or accelerators you got accepted into. If you've got loads of entries in your career history they're going to stick you on the no pile. Regardless of how it is internally, corporations don't like lone wolves or individual contributors. They have 'company values' and want someone who works well in a team, has done some mentoring, works well with others, understands the processes, etc etc etc (that is until you start then it's all about delivery). I'd try positioning your CV to appeal to those values with the technical skills to back it up. In summary - lose the fluff from cv/applications - present a more stable career history - emphasis on teamwork, working with other departments, mentoring And, I wouldn't worry about AI, offshoring - yes, AI - no. I'm still waiting to be shown an AI-generated SaaS app with real users, or even a functioning tool that's not just a clone of Flappy Bird.

mertleee 2y ago
Thanks for the advice. I've always sort of struggled putting myself in the shoes of someone who would read my resume and then pick me over another candidate. Cover letters used to help with this - but I don't think even HR folks read these anymore...

thecleaner 2y ago

OP, these startups can't offer you a job because they don't have the money to pay you. Plain and simple. Its not related to your skills in any way.

iainctduncan 2y ago

I work in technical diligence, so I look at companies getting bought by PE funds – not VC funds – but PE funds looking for boring, unglamorous, reliable year-over-year investments. There are tons of these companies out there. TONS. A lot of them pay their seniors very well, most pay them well, and they look like nice places to have a "normal job". But they don't get press attention, they don't get talked about on socials (inluding HN), and they don't advertise the same way as others. A lot of them you wouldn't even think of as "software companies", but they build software that makes them the best in some oddball domain programmers never think of, so they are normal, profitable businesses that don't run out burn and crash in balls of fire laying everyone off. My advice would be broaden your skill set to encompass a wider range of both the stack and of less hip technology, and then start looking and advertising outside the normal startup-heavy places. They are totally out there.

mertleee 2y ago
Interesting, other than linkedin cold messages do you have any suggestions for finding leads in the space? My only reservation with going this route is technical / programming folks always seem to be second class to anyone else at finance orgs / hedge funds.
scarface_74 2y ago
In my experience PE owned firms are the worse. They aren’t interested in growth. They are solely interested in cost cutting and financial engineering.
- iainctduncan 2y ago
  "PE owned firms" is a very big tent. I'm 100% sure the ones you describe exist, but the ones we deal with aren't like that at all. Which presumably is because the situation you describe doesn't warrant technical diligence. The vast majority of software acquisitions are now PE, and the funds we deal with want to see year over year growth (~20%) before selling in about 5 years.
  - 2y ago

danjl 2y ago

Startups are a terrible way to make money. It is far far easier to make money at a larger company than it is at a startup. It's even worse if you start the company yourself. The chances that you'll ever make money are pretty small, and getting to a regular salary can take 3-7 years. Even the chances of making life-changing quantities of money are much smaller. I've been working in this industry for 40 years and all the people I know who are rich did it at big companies, most recently at Nvidia, earlier at Apple, Sun, Facebook and similar. I know tons of startup founders. Almost none of them made significant money. It's more like authors and artists - start a new company because you are driven by an invisible force and you want to do things that you can't do anywhere else. Maybe you want to run your company differently. Maybe you want to work on something that nobody has figured out how to make profitable. A great reason to take a job at a startup is that you like working with small teams and You think you can learn from your coworkers. Do it because you have no other choice, not because you want to make money.

cloudedcordial 2y ago
> Startups are a terrible way to make money. ...for most people. Even if the company got sold or had an IPO, only the very early employees made life-changing money. There's no guarantee if the company will be at those stages. The news bias towards people who made life-changing money, but does not tend to report the "invisible force".
icedchai 2y ago
This is all true. But if you're working at a startup only to make money, you're probably doing it wrong.
- mertleee 2y ago
  Well, I enjoy - enojoyed - working at startups far more than faang for quite some time. The stress was easier to navigate and I felt like I had more levers to learn and grow than I did at Faang. However, times have changed - I want different things in life now. The point of a job is to make money consistently and provide some level of calm. Optimizing for that now since I'm tired of making blind startup bets.

codegeek 2y ago

"Even shooting around what new college grads are getting would be fine ($120-140k)" Wait, what ? Other than may be Silicon Valley or NYC (and thats a stretch), where would a new college grad get $120-140K in America ? Where ?

mertleee 2y ago
This is quite common even in austin - heck even at half decent startups. Also, with inflation $120k is a joke relative to even my adjusted starting salary out of college.

mindwork 2y ago

> I feel like a freaking loser given my age and my relative career stagnation / my inability to actually turn my mildly above average skills into any real money I would concentrate on this. Why are you feeling this way? Is it possibly because you compare yourself to others? Or you compare yourself to the "ideal world" that lives in your head based on the things that you read on the internet and experience of others? I'm sure you have lots of positives in your life right now. Are you starving? Do you have roof over your head? Do you struggle from any health problems or mental diseases? Are you addicted to anything? Do you have friends? Do you spend enough time with them? Can you exercise? Can you pay your bills? Do you have savings to whether turbulent times? I bet if you switch focus to something that you already have and where you already at it will help you. Switching mindset where you think not from backtracking from Ideal situation back to your life, but to switch that to start thinking from where are you now, and what are the next smallest step that you can take?

mertleee 2y ago
I appreciate the perspective - but in my opinion continually lowering your standards (at this point below even average) to feel okay with my situation is what I've done in the past and it's only resulted in a bigger hole / closing off more options. I don't want to make a million dollars a year - I'd just like a normal 9-5 even 9-7 job that provides enough to live a somewhat normal below average life. It's insane that in 2025 this is seen as an entitlement or something that shouldn't be relatively common.

financetechbro 2y ago

I think a good fit for you would be a PE backed software company. More specifically “growth PE,” these are firms that are typically coming in to bootstrapped or founder owned companies and are essentially a wallet for the company to leverage for inorganic and organic growth. I think this fits your background and provides a more stable outlook, specially if you focus on PEs that only invest in profitable companies or low burn companies. They will also be able to provide reasonable compensation

mertleee 2y ago
Curious what platforms I should attempt to network with? I have no idea where to even start with this but it sounds really interesting.

rekabis 2y ago

>I'm freaking out because the market is beyond fucked I’ve noticed that many company execs are turning to AI in order to solve one of their most pressing problems: how to eliminate wages without eliminating production. Things are going to get _a lot worse_ before they get any better. And that’s assuming that we don’t end up in a neo-feudalistic society where the 0.01% live like kings in unimaginable wealth while the 99.99% live in abject poverty and shackled to jobs like slaves, because if you aren’t profitable to someone you are fit only to die.

trumpvoter 2y ago

Freelance/contract - if you have mildly above average skills and a network, you should be able to find these contracts and they will pay for a mild lifestyle. I truly believe you won't be able to find a full time job because your preconception is half-retirement. You want to just be stuck at a level of a new grad salary - no company wants anyone that is stuck, they want people that will grow. Once you've chosen to stop growing, freelance is probably the best bet since companies, big or small, don't care about growth fron their contractors. At least, that's been what I settled on after startup burnout.