4 ms·

Then maybe you didn't take advantage of the things college offered you. For people who just want to follow the beaten path, college is just another footnote. F

by cheez 14y ago

Then maybe you didn't take advantage of the things college offered you. For people who just want to follow the beaten path, college is just another footnote. For those who want to explore, there is a lot of opportunity.

debacle 14y ago
I worked full-time in my industry for five (six?) years before finishing college. College for software engineering/comp sci lacks depth and applicability. They try to pander too much to people who don't have the discipline to learn what a computer is.
- cheez 14y ago
  So you're not the average comp sci college grad, congrats... For me, there were a lot of learning opportunities because I am naturally a curious person.
  - debacle 14y ago
    In my opinion, the average comp sci college grad (BS or MS) is a bad programmer.
    - DannyBee 14y ago
      I've interviewed (either on-site or phone-screen) ~110 new grads over the past 6 years, for a company that theoretically gets the best of the best (though in practice, it turns out more like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXRi28W-ENY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXRi28W-ENY). I'd agree with the BS part. The best BS students can write programs that accomplish the goal they want to accomplish, but aren't "good" at it. The MS students are hit and miss,in the sense that most (let's say 70%?) are not significantly better than the BS programmers at programming, though they are often have better at algorithm understanding. However, there are some MS students who are really good at programming. I don't know why there is such a stark difference from the BS folks, who are uniformly bad, but it does exist.
      - adestefan 14y ago
        Let's think about this for a minute. Most students earning their BS are around 20-22. Were very good at programming when you were ~21 with little to no experience? This is why entry level positions need to really be entry level. You're going to have to find the ones that are really motivated and bring them into an environment that promotes mentoring. If you're lucky, then in 2-3 years you have someone that can program your socks off.
        gcp 14y ago
        Let's think about this for a minute. Most students earning their BS are around 20-22. Were very good at programming when you were ~21 with little to no experience? I'd expect a 21 year old who studied computer-science to have programming experience outside school exercises, and not show any signs of sucking at it. If this isn't the case I see no reason to expect them to improve to a level that they "can program your socks off" after another 2-3 years. We can argue about what "bad at programming" and "program your socks off" means, but my main point is that there is no excuse not to have some programming experience by the time you graduate.
        DannyBee 14y ago
        I didn't say i thought it was strange that BS students can't program, only that i agreed that they can't. Personally, if college is not preparing them for the practical practice of their art (I'm not saying it should be done to the detriment of the theoretical side, i'm just saying it's not being done at all right now), that seems like not necessarily the best use of time/money. FWIW: I have the same view of law school, which is essentially worthless in terms of real world practice. If you practiced law how they test you in law school or on the bar exam, you'd be disbarred.
        pmiller2 14y ago
        If you practiced law how they test you in law school or on the bar exam, you'd be disbarred. Can you elaborate on this some?
        debacle 14y ago
    - adestefan 14y ago
      Because, amazingly enough, a BS, MS and PhD Comp Sci degree isn't to teach you how to program.
    - praxulus 14y ago
      The average programmer is a bad programmer, so that doesn't really say much.
    - cheez 14y ago
      No disagreement there. Most people prefer the beaten path -> average.
    - iamjs 14y ago
      I think this is largely a result of the average CS student never working on a non-academic project. The projects that CS students tend to work as coursework don't require too much investment in learning to become a good programmer--the code they write is written, turned in, and never looked at again, and working in teams typically isn't common. They never have to learn to be good programmers. The exceptional one's seek out extracurricular work and their programming improves with practice.
- mathetic 14y ago
  Computer science is not exactly about applicability. It is as mentioned in the name of the course is about science. Software engineering is although extremely complex is not exactly a science. Science is not about getting cool products into the market. It is about making a tiny progress in human knowledge. In an engineering point of view you are absolutely right but the fundamental mistake here is you have no idea what you signed up for. Computer science is not software engineering.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

by cheez 14y ago

debacle 14y ago

I worked full-time in my industry for five (six?) years before finishing college. College for software engineering/comp sci lacks depth and applicability. They try to pander too much to people who don't have the discipline to learn what a computer is.

cheez 14y ago
So you're not the average comp sci college grad, congrats... For me, there were a lot of learning opportunities because I am naturally a curious person.
- debacle 14y ago
  In my opinion, the average comp sci college grad (BS or MS) is a bad programmer.
  - DannyBee 14y ago
    I've interviewed (either on-site or phone-screen) ~110 new grads over the past 6 years, for a company that theoretically gets the best of the best (though in practice, it turns out more like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXRi28W-ENY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXRi28W-ENY). I'd agree with the BS part. The best BS students can write programs that accomplish the goal they want to accomplish, but aren't "good" at it. The MS students are hit and miss,in the sense that most (let's say 70%?) are not significantly better than the BS programmers at programming, though they are often have better at algorithm understanding. However, there are some MS students who are really good at programming. I don't know why there is such a stark difference from the BS folks, who are uniformly bad, but it does exist.
    - adestefan 14y ago
      Let's think about this for a minute. Most students earning their BS are around 20-22. Were very good at programming when you were ~21 with little to no experience? This is why entry level positions need to really be entry level. You're going to have to find the ones that are really motivated and bring them into an environment that promotes mentoring. If you're lucky, then in 2-3 years you have someone that can program your socks off.
      - gcp 14y ago
        Let's think about this for a minute. Most students earning their BS are around 20-22. Were very good at programming when you were ~21 with little to no experience? I'd expect a 21 year old who studied computer-science to have programming experience outside school exercises, and not show any signs of sucking at it. If this isn't the case I see no reason to expect them to improve to a level that they "can program your socks off" after another 2-3 years. We can argue about what "bad at programming" and "program your socks off" means, but my main point is that there is no excuse not to have some programming experience by the time you graduate.
      - DannyBee 14y ago
        I didn't say i thought it was strange that BS students can't program, only that i agreed that they can't. Personally, if college is not preparing them for the practical practice of their art (I'm not saying it should be done to the detriment of the theoretical side, i'm just saying it's not being done at all right now), that seems like not necessarily the best use of time/money. FWIW: I have the same view of law school, which is essentially worthless in terms of real world practice. If you practiced law how they test you in law school or on the bar exam, you'd be disbarred.
        pmiller2 14y ago
        If you practiced law how they test you in law school or on the bar exam, you'd be disbarred. Can you elaborate on this some?
      - debacle 14y ago
  - adestefan 14y ago
    Because, amazingly enough, a BS, MS and PhD Comp Sci degree isn't to teach you how to program.
  - praxulus 14y ago
    The average programmer is a bad programmer, so that doesn't really say much.
  - cheez 14y ago
    No disagreement there. Most people prefer the beaten path -> average.
  - iamjs 14y ago
    I think this is largely a result of the average CS student never working on a non-academic project. The projects that CS students tend to work as coursework don't require too much investment in learning to become a good programmer--the code they write is written, turned in, and never looked at again, and working in teams typically isn't common. They never have to learn to be good programmers. The exceptional one's seek out extracurricular work and their programming improves with practice.
mathetic 14y ago
Computer science is not exactly about applicability. It is as mentioned in the name of the course is about science. Software engineering is although extremely complex is not exactly a science. Science is not about getting cool products into the market. It is about making a tiny progress in human knowledge. In an engineering point of view you are absolutely right but the fundamental mistake here is you have no idea what you signed up for. Computer science is not software engineering.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]