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There's so much partisan noise about DOGE going around -- At this point, I don't know what to believe anymore. Elon lies constantly, abuses employees, backstabs

There's so much partisan noise about DOGE going around -- At this point, I don't know what to believe anymore. Elon lies constantly, abuses employees, backstabs partners, and is probably a racist; At the same time, his companies have created seemingly impossible/fantastic technologies/tools that have changed the world forever. Is DOGE a genuine effort at desperately needed reforms to save America from bankruptcy? Is it a secret plot to take full control of the federal government like a dictator's coup? Is it a mix of both at the same time (ie; recent Saudi and Chinese 'anti-corruption' campaigns)? What should I believe?

soulofmischief 2y ago
You should believe what your eyes and ears tell you, after corroborating multiple sources and reading accounts of or speaking with people who have been directly affected by what's happening. Read Project 2025, the playbook is out in the open. All of this is going to require critical thinking skills and unfortunately you can't gain that by reading tips. Assuming you do gave critical thinking skills, it's pretty clear what's taking place and that soft truths are often used to hide deep lies.
scarface_74 2y ago
What “impossible goals”? It’s easy just to randomly fire people, act illegally and not to think of the downstream consequences. Any private CEO would have his head handed to him by handling things do ham fistedly
- ahwelitif 2y ago
  I edited my comment to be more clear. As an ethnically Syrian person, Elon Musk has posted enraging racist epithets about me every single day on his Twitter. I strongly dislike him as a person for his firehose of slander against helpless refugees who aren't so privileged/fortunate as me. Look at how he is speaking towards poor Ukraine! Despite this, his companies have without a doubt changed the world. His investments into e-banking, reusable rockets, mass market EVs, ChatGPT, Starlink, green energy, etc. sound like something from a comic book into how outsized an impact they make.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    He threw money at the problem? Are you really giving him credit for ChatGPT?
    - ahwelitif 2y ago
      Yes, he threw money to build up teams to solve hard problems. According to this Wikipedia article he was a co-chair of OpenAI when it was founded in 2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAI#:~:text=A%20total%20of%20%241%20billion,only%20%24130%20million%20until%202019. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAI#:~:text=A%20total%20of%... I'm open to being wrong on that though.
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        According to your citation, there was a total of $130 million invested between 10 people. He wasn’t actually involved in any of the engineering ir decision making or putting the team together.
TransAtlToonz 2y ago
[flagged]
krapp 2y ago
You shouldn't depend on others to dictate your beliefs to you. You're allowed to believe whatever you like.
- billev2k 2y ago
  Though it doesn't matter how fervently you believe. The universe doesn't care.
  - krapp 2y ago
    Sure but this is a discussion forum and nihilism makes for uninteresting conversation. And people are invested in their lives and welfare even if all we are is dust floating blindly through the void of an uncaring universe, or whatever.
    - jaennaet 2y ago
      How is it "nihilist" to say that objective reality doesn't care about your beliefs? I can believe the sky is pink until I'm blue in the face. The sky won't change colors because of it.
ahaisncixnsb 2y ago
DOGE may be genuine but while the fed exists and money is a commodity, it’s really kinda moot. Yes there’s awful wasteful spending in the government but it’s peanuts compared to devaluing your labor by ~3% annually to enable a debt based economy. Try to pull off fractional reserve banking in any other context and you’ll be called a cheat and a thief. DOGE is yet another distraction to keep the left and the right bickering while the billionaires continue to grow the wealth gap. The dollar is the global currency and its monetary policy is set by private entities that don’t care much about the other 99.99% of us - just enough to keep a revolt from happening.
timetraveller26 2y ago
I get ya, but if one could apply some kind of Occam's razor is hard to defend DOGE's approach after all the mishandlements, false discoveries, bullying,and dangerous firings.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
bithive123 2y ago
Well, we know can't be to "save America from bankruptcy" because as a currency issuer, the federal government of the USA can't go bankrupt the way a currency user like a corporation or state government might.
- johng 2y ago
  It can go bankrupt in the same way that Zimbabwe did with hyperinflation... even losing the USD as the world currency would be catastrophic. So yes, we can very much go bankrupt.
  - bithive123 2y ago
    Respectfully, this is not accurate. Zimbabwe's debts were not denominated in their own currency. You are repeating a claim which has been debunked for decades, and is based on a misunderstanding of how our monetary system works.
    - invalidname 2y ago
      Yes. But an important key fact here is that this is true as long as the USD is the world currency. It's the world currency since the US is the global super-power both in international support and military strength. By cutting spending on foreign countries the US is forcing these countries to turn elsewhere for aid which will come in the currency of the new provider and with strings attached. This can cause a domino effect which will significantly weaken the USDs standing and force the US to take up "real" debt. DOGE could very well bankrupt the USA if they aren't careful. They don't seem careful or self-aware.
      - soco 2y ago
        "buy when there's blood on the streets" - I definitely hope this is not their actual plan.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
tyronehed 2y ago
News for you. Elon Musk is not an engineer. Elon Musk does not know computer science. Yes, he's able to read books and learn subjects but he has never worked as a software engineer in any professional setting. You attribute competence to him in so many areas where he does not deserve it.
nathanaldensr 2y ago
Only believe what you can verify with your own two eyes; otherwise, you leave yourself open to manipulation from propaganda. We live in a post-truth era. Embrace it!
unsnap_biceps 2y ago
The one common thread with elons companies and their success is that it strongly appears the more he is prevented from having direct control, the better they do. He has direct control of doge so it's going pretty poorly.
JohnTHaller 2y ago
Considering the COBOL Metre date screw-up, it's pretty obvious that the folks doing this don't understand the most basic underpinnings of the systems they're poking and prodding. For those who missed it, DOGE claimed there were tons people who were about 150 years in the system. In actuality, the the default date in COBOL is May 20, 1875 (the date of the Metre Convention) which works out to about 150 years old. Elon Musk publicly stated: "cursory examination of Social Security, and we got people in there that are 150 years old. Now, do you know anyone that's 150? I don't know. They should be in the Guinness Book of World Records... So that's a case where I think they're probably dead." That's how little Musk understands about computer systems he's supposedly responsible for analyzing. And Elon has publicly stated he'll often be wrong wrt DOGE. EDIT: Elon also posted a Tweet showing age buckets, but according to other Social Security Association folks, they didn't filter out dead people or non-recipients. When you do, only 89,106 are aged 99+. Less than the number of living centenarians in the US: https://x.com/justinwolfers/status/1891678450487841007 https://x.com/justinwolfers/status/1891678450487841007
- Banned_IT 2y ago
  [flagged]
- reustle 2y ago
  If this post is accurate (big if), wouldn't it prove that theory false? https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891350795452654076 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891350795452654076
  - bargl 2y ago
    Yeah this is the part I find hard to suss out. If they said we have people who are 104 and the next oldest is 150 holy shit. That's case closed, but the link you sent makes me suspicious of the bias on the other side... I agree with original comment. I just don't know who to trust to do a deep enough dive to give me good information.
    - gs17 2y ago
thefz 2y ago
> his companies have created seemingly impossible/fantastic technologies/tools His engineers/employees... not him. Besides, I'd be wary of calling electric cars "seemingly impossible/fantastic".
pragmatic 2y ago
"his companies have created seemingly impossible/fantastic technologies/tools that have changed the world forever." What would those be?
- ryandvm 2y ago
  I mean, SpaceX has revolutionized satellite launching, but that's about it. The rest of Phony Stark's success is mostly about being a hype man in the right place at the right time. For years he coasted on the reputation of being a dorky, space/environment obsessed autist, but in the last few years it's become obvious that most of his admirable traits were just him masking. Now that he doesn't feel that's necessary we're seeing what happens when the richest man in the world swallows the red pill and it ain't pretty.
srid 2y ago
> What should I believe? For one thing, do not blindly believe what you read here on Hacker News, where there is a clear anti-Musk slant. I'd recommend more rational places like https://www.themotte.org/ https://www.themotte.org/ where these topics can be discussed in a relatively calm manner. You are likely to come up with more informed opinions than otherwise.
- gaganyaan 2y ago
  That site is also calling out Musk for being a Nazi-saluting fascist, which is a good thing. It's not anti-Musk to believe what he says about himself. You should re-examine why you feel the need to push your own slant.

soulofmischief 2y ago

You should believe what your eyes and ears tell you, after corroborating multiple sources and reading accounts of or speaking with people who have been directly affected by what's happening. Read Project 2025, the playbook is out in the open. All of this is going to require critical thinking skills and unfortunately you can't gain that by reading tips. Assuming you do gave critical thinking skills, it's pretty clear what's taking place and that soft truths are often used to hide deep lies.

scarface_74 2y ago

What “impossible goals”? It’s easy just to randomly fire people, act illegally and not to think of the downstream consequences. Any private CEO would have his head handed to him by handling things do ham fistedly

ahwelitif 2y ago
I edited my comment to be more clear. As an ethnically Syrian person, Elon Musk has posted enraging racist epithets about me every single day on his Twitter. I strongly dislike him as a person for his firehose of slander against helpless refugees who aren't so privileged/fortunate as me. Look at how he is speaking towards poor Ukraine! Despite this, his companies have without a doubt changed the world. His investments into e-banking, reusable rockets, mass market EVs, ChatGPT, Starlink, green energy, etc. sound like something from a comic book into how outsized an impact they make.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  He threw money at the problem? Are you really giving him credit for ChatGPT?
  - ahwelitif 2y ago
    Yes, he threw money to build up teams to solve hard problems. According to this Wikipedia article he was a co-chair of OpenAI when it was founded in 2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAI#:~:text=A%20total%20of%20%241%20billion,only%20%24130%20million%20until%202019. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAI#:~:text=A%20total%20of%... I'm open to being wrong on that though.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      According to your citation, there was a total of $130 million invested between 10 people. He wasn’t actually involved in any of the engineering ir decision making or putting the team together.

TransAtlToonz 2y ago

[flagged]

krapp 2y ago

You shouldn't depend on others to dictate your beliefs to you. You're allowed to believe whatever you like.

billev2k 2y ago
Though it doesn't matter how fervently you believe. The universe doesn't care.
- krapp 2y ago
  Sure but this is a discussion forum and nihilism makes for uninteresting conversation. And people are invested in their lives and welfare even if all we are is dust floating blindly through the void of an uncaring universe, or whatever.
  - jaennaet 2y ago
    How is it "nihilist" to say that objective reality doesn't care about your beliefs? I can believe the sky is pink until I'm blue in the face. The sky won't change colors because of it.

ahaisncixnsb 2y ago

DOGE may be genuine but while the fed exists and money is a commodity, it’s really kinda moot. Yes there’s awful wasteful spending in the government but it’s peanuts compared to devaluing your labor by ~3% annually to enable a debt based economy. Try to pull off fractional reserve banking in any other context and you’ll be called a cheat and a thief. DOGE is yet another distraction to keep the left and the right bickering while the billionaires continue to grow the wealth gap. The dollar is the global currency and its monetary policy is set by private entities that don’t care much about the other 99.99% of us - just enough to keep a revolt from happening.

timetraveller26 2y ago

I get ya, but if one could apply some kind of Occam's razor is hard to defend DOGE's approach after all the mishandlements, false discoveries, bullying,and dangerous firings.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

bithive123 2y ago

Well, we know can't be to "save America from bankruptcy" because as a currency issuer, the federal government of the USA can't go bankrupt the way a currency user like a corporation or state government might.

johng 2y ago
It can go bankrupt in the same way that Zimbabwe did with hyperinflation... even losing the USD as the world currency would be catastrophic. So yes, we can very much go bankrupt.
- bithive123 2y ago
  Respectfully, this is not accurate. Zimbabwe's debts were not denominated in their own currency. You are repeating a claim which has been debunked for decades, and is based on a misunderstanding of how our monetary system works.
  - invalidname 2y ago
    Yes. But an important key fact here is that this is true as long as the USD is the world currency. It's the world currency since the US is the global super-power both in international support and military strength. By cutting spending on foreign countries the US is forcing these countries to turn elsewhere for aid which will come in the currency of the new provider and with strings attached. This can cause a domino effect which will significantly weaken the USDs standing and force the US to take up "real" debt. DOGE could very well bankrupt the USA if they aren't careful. They don't seem careful or self-aware.
    - soco 2y ago
      "buy when there's blood on the streets" - I definitely hope this is not their actual plan.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

tyronehed 2y ago

News for you. Elon Musk is not an engineer. Elon Musk does not know computer science. Yes, he's able to read books and learn subjects but he has never worked as a software engineer in any professional setting. You attribute competence to him in so many areas where he does not deserve it.

nathanaldensr 2y ago

Only believe what you can verify with your own two eyes; otherwise, you leave yourself open to manipulation from propaganda. We live in a post-truth era. Embrace it!

unsnap_biceps 2y ago

The one common thread with elons companies and their success is that it strongly appears the more he is prevented from having direct control, the better they do. He has direct control of doge so it's going pretty poorly.

JohnTHaller 2y ago

Considering the COBOL Metre date screw-up, it's pretty obvious that the folks doing this don't understand the most basic underpinnings of the systems they're poking and prodding. For those who missed it, DOGE claimed there were tons people who were about 150 years in the system. In actuality, the the default date in COBOL is May 20, 1875 (the date of the Metre Convention) which works out to about 150 years old. Elon Musk publicly stated: "cursory examination of Social Security, and we got people in there that are 150 years old. Now, do you know anyone that's 150? I don't know. They should be in the Guinness Book of World Records... So that's a case where I think they're probably dead." That's how little Musk understands about computer systems he's supposedly responsible for analyzing. And Elon has publicly stated he'll often be wrong wrt DOGE. EDIT: Elon also posted a Tweet showing age buckets, but according to other Social Security Association folks, they didn't filter out dead people or non-recipients. When you do, only 89,106 are aged 99+. Less than the number of living centenarians in the US: https://x.com/justinwolfers/status/1891678450487841007 https://x.com/justinwolfers/status/1891678450487841007

Banned_IT 2y ago
[flagged]
reustle 2y ago
If this post is accurate (big if), wouldn't it prove that theory false? https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891350795452654076 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891350795452654076
- bargl 2y ago
  Yeah this is the part I find hard to suss out. If they said we have people who are 104 and the next oldest is 150 holy shit. That's case closed, but the link you sent makes me suspicious of the bias on the other side... I agree with original comment. I just don't know who to trust to do a deep enough dive to give me good information.
  - gs17 2y ago

thefz 2y ago

> his companies have created seemingly impossible/fantastic technologies/tools His engineers/employees... not him. Besides, I'd be wary of calling electric cars "seemingly impossible/fantastic".

pragmatic 2y ago

"his companies have created seemingly impossible/fantastic technologies/tools that have changed the world forever." What would those be?

ryandvm 2y ago
I mean, SpaceX has revolutionized satellite launching, but that's about it. The rest of Phony Stark's success is mostly about being a hype man in the right place at the right time. For years he coasted on the reputation of being a dorky, space/environment obsessed autist, but in the last few years it's become obvious that most of his admirable traits were just him masking. Now that he doesn't feel that's necessary we're seeing what happens when the richest man in the world swallows the red pill and it ain't pretty.

srid 2y ago

> What should I believe? For one thing, do not blindly believe what you read here on Hacker News, where there is a clear anti-Musk slant. I'd recommend more rational places like https://www.themotte.org/ https://www.themotte.org/ where these topics can be discussed in a relatively calm manner. You are likely to come up with more informed opinions than otherwise.

gaganyaan 2y ago
That site is also calling out Musk for being a Nazi-saluting fascist, which is a good thing. It's not anti-Musk to believe what he says about himself. You should re-examine why you feel the need to push your own slant.