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I never understood why Big Tech never setup contracts with all the SAT and ACT test centers across the country. Even before Zoom with Codepads it would have mad

by jarsin 2y ago

I never understood why Big Tech never setup contracts with all the SAT and ACT test centers across the country. Even before Zoom with Codepads it would have made sense for the recruiters to send potential candidates to a test center to do a pre assessment rather than waste time with engineers sitting on prescreen calls all day.

neofrommatrix 2y ago
What exactly are you suggesting here? A standardized test that applies to all your job applications? Or, a candidate having to drive to a test center for every company they apply to? Or something else?
- jarsin 2y ago
  Standardized plus the ability for companies to do their own test after they pass the standard one. So go get prescreened at test center then use that test to apply for jobs. Company either flys you in for in-person or sends you back to test center to do live remote interview in controlled environment.
  - recursive 2y ago
    That was essentially triplebyte.
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      No, that was Triplebyte's marketing. Their actual product was completely different.
    - benatkin 2y ago
      That was part of it. Another part was it being socially awkward in a way that I think outsourcing testing needn't be.
  - AlexGizis 2y ago
    It's been tried and failed: Sun Microsystems pushed certifications in the 90s. Pass the test on some technology, get the certification. Then they studied performance. The result? More certifications implied a worse employee. The reason was the top performing employees had no time to study for the exams, but the managers of the bottom performing employees were happy to send them off to training and testing. And then the certification fad came mostly to an end.
    - jarsin 2y ago
      I always felt like the Sun and Cisco certs were more about creating people that would push their products on other companies. Big Tech / Unicorn / Wannabe Unicorn prescreens are all basically standardized now anyway.
    - benatkin 2y ago
      That was something quite different that got tried. This would be more based on aptitude rather than knowledge. Of course, they'd miss out on some good talent. But in the article where it shows the quote of someone getting rejected for not inverting a binary tree on a whiteboard, that doesn't seem like a terrible thing to test for.
- tonymet 2y ago
  the idea is sound. create a basic standardized test targeted at tech/engineering jobs. not actually SAT -- operated by a vendor like The College Board. There are plenty of standardized test operators
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    That’s what Triplebyte planned on. The truth is I don’t trust anyone else to run evals.
    - tonymet 2y ago
      you're right there are quality issues, some probably deliberate. but the screening cost for companies is eye watering so something should be done.
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      > The truth is I don’t trust anyone else to run evals. It's a common sentiment. But compare https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decision-making/article/belief-in-the-unstructured-interview-the-persistence-of-an-illusion/5BBA77932EF22EBEAA1E8020126A1925 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decisio... . ("People predicting the future performance of college students state that interviewing the students aids prediction, although in fact the interviews make predictions less accurate.")
      - renewiltord 2y ago
        Well, the people who read that are welcome to try that and outcompete me in the market. Triplebyte still exists.
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    When I'm interviewing, I'm putting about 30% of the weight towards "would I enjoy working with this person on a daily basis?", but in the context of technical discussions. Standardized testing won't be able to replicate it.
enmyj 2y ago
I have done interviews with Karat which just outsources technical interviews to engineers elsewhere. All of these technical interviews still suck though! I basically never code with someone watching me and find it very difficult to do in interviews. I also find it hard to find the time to actually practice this skill
givemeethekeys 2y ago
In the US and Canada, to get into university, there is, or at least used to be, a standard entrance exam or something close to it (the SAT in the US, OAC scores if you were from Ontario, Canada, etc..). Additionally, Undergraduate programs in the US and Canada, at least used to, despite their varied reputation, have a pretty standard program. Maybe things have deteriorated so far at the high school and university level that new standardized exams are needed. But we also have a plethora of verifiable certifications whose exams are held in independent test facilities.
janalsncm 2y ago
That maybe end up happening. Send them to a test center to do their remote hacker rank interview. Doesn’t even need to be standardized. I don’t like it but it’s one of the lower friction options.
arscan 2y ago
Im revisiting technical interview prep because it has been awhile and it seems like a good time for a refresher, and it is striking how similar it all is to SAT and GMAT prep these days. A pretty cookie-cutter performance that is mostly about demonstrating that you have the time and means to properly prepare. Might as well just go the extra step at that point and have it be exactly like those standardized tests… take them once at a test center, get a score that is valid for a few years that you can just send in with your application…
ttyprintk 2y ago
Another commenter on this called it “Licensing” but it’s more like credentialing to me.

by jarsin 2y ago

neofrommatrix 2y ago

What exactly are you suggesting here? A standardized test that applies to all your job applications? Or, a candidate having to drive to a test center for every company they apply to? Or something else?

jarsin 2y ago
Standardized plus the ability for companies to do their own test after they pass the standard one. So go get prescreened at test center then use that test to apply for jobs. Company either flys you in for in-person or sends you back to test center to do live remote interview in controlled environment.
- recursive 2y ago
  That was essentially triplebyte.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    No, that was Triplebyte's marketing. Their actual product was completely different.
  - benatkin 2y ago
    That was part of it. Another part was it being socially awkward in a way that I think outsourcing testing needn't be.
- AlexGizis 2y ago
  It's been tried and failed: Sun Microsystems pushed certifications in the 90s. Pass the test on some technology, get the certification. Then they studied performance. The result? More certifications implied a worse employee. The reason was the top performing employees had no time to study for the exams, but the managers of the bottom performing employees were happy to send them off to training and testing. And then the certification fad came mostly to an end.
  - jarsin 2y ago
    I always felt like the Sun and Cisco certs were more about creating people that would push their products on other companies. Big Tech / Unicorn / Wannabe Unicorn prescreens are all basically standardized now anyway.
  - benatkin 2y ago
    That was something quite different that got tried. This would be more based on aptitude rather than knowledge. Of course, they'd miss out on some good talent. But in the article where it shows the quote of someone getting rejected for not inverting a binary tree on a whiteboard, that doesn't seem like a terrible thing to test for.
tonymet 2y ago
the idea is sound. create a basic standardized test targeted at tech/engineering jobs. not actually SAT -- operated by a vendor like The College Board. There are plenty of standardized test operators
- renewiltord 2y ago
  That’s what Triplebyte planned on. The truth is I don’t trust anyone else to run evals.
  - tonymet 2y ago
    you're right there are quality issues, some probably deliberate. but the screening cost for companies is eye watering so something should be done.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > The truth is I don’t trust anyone else to run evals. It's a common sentiment. But compare https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decision-making/article/belief-in-the-unstructured-interview-the-persistence-of-an-illusion/5BBA77932EF22EBEAA1E8020126A1925 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decisio... . ("People predicting the future performance of college students state that interviewing the students aids prediction, although in fact the interviews make predictions less accurate.")
    - renewiltord 2y ago
      Well, the people who read that are welcome to try that and outcompete me in the market. Triplebyte still exists.
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  When I'm interviewing, I'm putting about 30% of the weight towards "would I enjoy working with this person on a daily basis?", but in the context of technical discussions. Standardized testing won't be able to replicate it.

enmyj 2y ago

I have done interviews with Karat which just outsources technical interviews to engineers elsewhere. All of these technical interviews still suck though! I basically never code with someone watching me and find it very difficult to do in interviews. I also find it hard to find the time to actually practice this skill

givemeethekeys 2y ago

In the US and Canada, to get into university, there is, or at least used to be, a standard entrance exam or something close to it (the SAT in the US, OAC scores if you were from Ontario, Canada, etc..). Additionally, Undergraduate programs in the US and Canada, at least used to, despite their varied reputation, have a pretty standard program. Maybe things have deteriorated so far at the high school and university level that new standardized exams are needed. But we also have a plethora of verifiable certifications whose exams are held in independent test facilities.

janalsncm 2y ago

That maybe end up happening. Send them to a test center to do their remote hacker rank interview. Doesn’t even need to be standardized. I don’t like it but it’s one of the lower friction options.

arscan 2y ago

Im revisiting technical interview prep because it has been awhile and it seems like a good time for a refresher, and it is striking how similar it all is to SAT and GMAT prep these days. A pretty cookie-cutter performance that is mostly about demonstrating that you have the time and means to properly prepare. Might as well just go the extra step at that point and have it be exactly like those standardized tests… take them once at a test center, get a score that is valid for a few years that you can just send in with your application…

ttyprintk 2y ago

Another commenter on this called it “Licensing” but it’s more like credentialing to me.