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> Would love a 5G MacBook with a data plan. I thoroughly enjoyed the ATP podcast discussion on this. Sounds like the base assumption is Apple is incapable of

> Would love a 5G MacBook with a data plan. I thoroughly enjoyed the ATP podcast discussion on this. Sounds like the base assumption is Apple is incapable of having decent tethering even as they control the whole ecosystem, including special protocols in-between their product they design 100% from hardware to software. But somehow pushing the modem in the MacBook solves this...because Apple is then good at managing transient network connections in macos, hooking to complex mesh networks on protocols they don't control ? To my eyes Apple being unable to realize these dreamlike expectations is probably the very reason MacBooks don't have modems.

hug 2y ago
> Apple is incapable of having decent tethering even as they control the whole ecosystem Are they, though? Tethering from my MacBook to my iPhone or iPad is a pretty seamless experience, to the point I don't even think about it. And sometimes I get home from a cafe and forget I'm even tethering until I notice my iPhone battery is lower than expected. And this isn't Apple, but I don't even notice I'm not on my home LAN because of tailscale. It's definitely significantly easier than dealing with built in WWAN devices & ModemManager on my linux laptop. (Or Windows, when I used it on that same hardware.)
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  If your sentiment is the most common, including a modem in MacBooks makes only sense for the tiniest of tiniest of user slice, and with Apple barely cattering to pro users, I can't imagine them investing further to solve a problem that isn't as simple as just slapping an extra part in the machine (which they traditionally hate). On my side it was 90% there, a bit lagging to connect and totally failing from time to time , once in a week perhaps, but workable otherwise. The argument on the podcast was for having a 100% great solution like it does on the iPad, assuming an internal modem on macos would rainbows and ponnies.
benoittravers 2y ago
Do you have a link to that podcast about 5G MacBook?
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  This one: https://atp.fm/625 https://atp.fm/625 I must have been around the 1h20 time in the podcast
amazingman 2y ago
>But somehow pushing the modem in the MacBook solves this...because Apple is then good at managing transient network connections in macos, hooking to complex mesh networks on protocols they don't control ? A cell modem is mostly just another uplink, with all the hard stuff being done in the modem. The user doesn't need to do anything to use it. Tethering requires extra stuff to happen: the user has to initiate the connection, the iPhone has to reconfigure its networking, and I imagine there's a bunch of security layers that must be passed through before tethering is allowed. It's 2 entirely different scenarios.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  You choose to simplify how to integrate the modem into the system while digging deeper into how tethering happens. Why doesn't having another separate subsystem running it's own OS managing the cell connection also have network switching implications (something deciding the connection is now the primary one, just like it does for tethering), security issues (it's a know attack vector on phones as well), power management issues etc ? The iPhone 3G for instance was a piece of crap network connection wise, it would drop calls, lose signal, memory leak at the border of the two systems etc. Networking with a cell subsystem isn't trivial.
  - amazingman 2y ago
    Can you make a reasonable case for why the experience must necessarily be worse in macOS than it is in iOS and iPadOS?
    - makeitdouble 2y ago
      IOS was built from the ground to handle cellular networking, and the whole stack is optimized for that, including sandboxing network connections and not allowing server type applications or anything that directly tries to mess with the networking layer in a way that is not explicitly authorized. Coming from a mature OS built from a completely different paradigm is going to require a lot more effort. In particular macos has a whole legacy of programs doing almost whatever they want. Apple _can_ just slap a cell networking subsystem in it and let it crash and burn whenever something unexpected happens or the user gets out of the defined boundaries of when it should work (like depleting system memory), but that doesn't sound like a great brand strategy to me and is not what people seem to be expecting. Microsoft will be on board with it, but I don't see Apple.

hug 2y ago

> Apple is incapable of having decent tethering even as they control the whole ecosystem Are they, though? Tethering from my MacBook to my iPhone or iPad is a pretty seamless experience, to the point I don't even think about it. And sometimes I get home from a cafe and forget I'm even tethering until I notice my iPhone battery is lower than expected. And this isn't Apple, but I don't even notice I'm not on my home LAN because of tailscale. It's definitely significantly easier than dealing with built in WWAN devices & ModemManager on my linux laptop. (Or Windows, when I used it on that same hardware.)

makeitdouble 2y ago
If your sentiment is the most common, including a modem in MacBooks makes only sense for the tiniest of tiniest of user slice, and with Apple barely cattering to pro users, I can't imagine them investing further to solve a problem that isn't as simple as just slapping an extra part in the machine (which they traditionally hate). On my side it was 90% there, a bit lagging to connect and totally failing from time to time , once in a week perhaps, but workable otherwise. The argument on the podcast was for having a 100% great solution like it does on the iPad, assuming an internal modem on macos would rainbows and ponnies.

benoittravers 2y ago

Do you have a link to that podcast about 5G MacBook?

makeitdouble 2y ago
This one: https://atp.fm/625 https://atp.fm/625 I must have been around the 1h20 time in the podcast

amazingman 2y ago

>But somehow pushing the modem in the MacBook solves this...because Apple is then good at managing transient network connections in macos, hooking to complex mesh networks on protocols they don't control ? A cell modem is mostly just another uplink, with all the hard stuff being done in the modem. The user doesn't need to do anything to use it. Tethering requires extra stuff to happen: the user has to initiate the connection, the iPhone has to reconfigure its networking, and I imagine there's a bunch of security layers that must be passed through before tethering is allowed. It's 2 entirely different scenarios.

makeitdouble 2y ago
You choose to simplify how to integrate the modem into the system while digging deeper into how tethering happens. Why doesn't having another separate subsystem running it's own OS managing the cell connection also have network switching implications (something deciding the connection is now the primary one, just like it does for tethering), security issues (it's a know attack vector on phones as well), power management issues etc ? The iPhone 3G for instance was a piece of crap network connection wise, it would drop calls, lose signal, memory leak at the border of the two systems etc. Networking with a cell subsystem isn't trivial.
- amazingman 2y ago
  Can you make a reasonable case for why the experience must necessarily be worse in macOS than it is in iOS and iPadOS?
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    IOS was built from the ground to handle cellular networking, and the whole stack is optimized for that, including sandboxing network connections and not allowing server type applications or anything that directly tries to mess with the networking layer in a way that is not explicitly authorized. Coming from a mature OS built from a completely different paradigm is going to require a lot more effort. In particular macos has a whole legacy of programs doing almost whatever they want. Apple _can_ just slap a cell networking subsystem in it and let it crash and burn whenever something unexpected happens or the user gets out of the defined boundaries of when it should work (like depleting system memory), but that doesn't sound like a great brand strategy to me and is not what people seem to be expecting. Microsoft will be on board with it, but I don't see Apple.