6 ms·

The crazy thing that I think about is that if we were debating the 4th amendment today, it wouldn't pass. It wouldn't even come close to passing, we would be a

The crazy thing that I think about is that if we were debating the 4th amendment today, it wouldn't pass. It wouldn't even come close to passing, we would be arguing how warrantless searches are necessary to keep terrorists away. An agent of the government can lie to your face, create fake documents to support that lie, and threaten you with prison to confess under the duress caused by this lie and we think this maybe shouldn't be ok, barely, but only for kids. This is an insane world we live in that this is debated topic.

dmix 2y ago
this is a fun read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Big_(police_procedure) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Big_(police_procedure) > The use of this technique is essentially prohibited in some countries, including the United Kingdom[4] and the United States.[5] In Germany, which has high standards for what constitutes a voluntary confession, it may be more difficult to use confessions obtained by this technique.[5] The procedure has been used by police in Australia[6] and New Zealand,[7] and its use has been upheld by courts in both countries.
- reverendsteveii 2y ago
  Since we're doing the van halen "right now your government is doing things you think only happen in other countries" thing, here's one about a 15 year old who was so mentally disabled "“He was unable to even tie his shoelaces and his mother would have to do it for him", but that didn't stop him from being groomed by FBI agents to say things that count as conspiracy to commit terrorism. They recorded everything that he said without regard to the fact that he had “the mentality of a 6-year-old”, then waited until he turned 18 to arrest him so they could charge him as an adult and put him away for life. https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/18-year-old-arrested-on-terrorism-charges-is-mentally-like-a-child/ https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/18-year-old-arrested-on-...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
woodrowbarlow 2y ago
another example to reinforce: ICE commonly self-issues "administrative warrants" for agents to present at a raid. these are not the same as judicial warrants, have not been reviewed by a judge, and do not have any legal power. but none of that is obvious to the person looking at a document that says "warrant" at the top. annotated example: https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/i-200_and_i-205_sample_annotated.pdf https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/i-200_and...
- jandrese 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - woodrowbarlow 2y ago
    i will not, but thank you for your concern.
  - jjtheblunt 2y ago
    That article doesn't support what you extrapolated from it.
  - mperham 2y ago
    Are you advocating for "complying in advance"? That's how we get a dictatorship: rolling over rather than pushing back.
  - Our_Benefactors 2y ago
    Unreadable cancer ads infested shithole website
  - foobarchu 2y ago
    Refuse to comply with their illegal threats.
  - Frederation 2y ago
    Wow. Scarred?
- 2y ago
zdragnar 2y ago
We know for a fact that high ranked government officials have lied on FISA warrants. The fact that there hasn't been any accountability for them, and that Congress is so resistant to changing the program, and the courts failing to uphold the Constitution, is a real tragedy.
eadmund 2y ago
> if we were debating the 4th amendment today, it wouldn't pass Neither would the 1st, the 2nd, maybe the 5th, the 6th is already in abeyance when the accusers are minors, and definitely not the 10th. Maybe the 3rd would be approved? Needless to say, I heartily approve of the entire Bill of Rights.
- some_random 2y ago
  The 3rd would be approved because it has a carve-out, soldiers can be quartered in private homes _during wartime_ as long as a law says it's ok. That exact same type of carve-out would be added to every amendment if it was proposed today.
some_random 2y ago
No amendment would pass with the possible exception of the 3rd (which already has the exact kind of wartime carve out the other amendments would receive), the modern discourse has very little respect for rights and liberties with a handful of highly politicized exceptions.
- mandevil 2y ago
  Right now no amendment can pass at all. You can look at when amendments pass, and most of the time they come in bunches, when either the parties are unusually close together or one party or the other is unusually powerful. Right now- with a nation balanced almost exactly 50-50 and very far apart- nothing like that can possibly pass.
programmerpass 2y ago
“we would be arguing”? I wouldn’t. I would argue it should be illegal for the police, media, and others who have significant roles in society to lie and that they should be criminally prosecuted. The only tragedy that I see is that most people seem to scream something in relation to free speech when the idea of criminally prosecuting folks for lying is mentioned. I prefer truthful discourse with serious consequences over whatever most call “free speech”.
- SauciestGNU 2y ago
  If this last election taught me anything, it's that people who share my beliefs about the sanctity of human rights are in a minority.
Etherlord87 2y ago
US survey 2021 Earth is flat, not round 10% agree 9% unsure 80% disagree With statistics like this, no state of affairs will surprise me. Perhaps needless to say, there's no reason to think whole 80% is reasonable; you'd expect a smooth gradient going across the 19%/80%, not through the 1% (which is lost in rounding I guess) but perhaps through most of the society, with only a small fraction of it being truly reasonable. The educational system succeeded in teaching writing and reading, and not with much more, not when it comes to masses.
- s_m_t 2y ago
  That doesn't seem too bad to me. It isn't trivial to prove the earth is flat. 10th percentile IQ seems to be around the functional illiteracy threshold. The military won't take them because as much as they have tried they can't seem to get that 10th percentile trained in just about anything. If such a person looks out into the distance, sees that things look flat and not like a sphere, and then watches some video with half-baked reasoning telling them they are right then I'm not sure how you could realistically convince them otherwise.
  - FloorEgg 2y ago
    The assumption that everyone has equal capabilities can cause a lot of needless struggle and suffering. Similarly assumptions that an individual can't or won't grow or learn or improve can also lead to a lot of unnecessary struggle and suffering. Both things: that everyone's capabilities (and limits) are different and individuals can increase their capabilities can be and are true. So I can understand someone's concern that we have flat earthers, as well as your lack of concern.
  - Etherlord87 2y ago
    To be convinced the Earth is flat is ridiculous on so many levels. You say they watch a youtube video confirming they're right in their primitive observation. OK, what about the easy availability of videos to the contrary? It's not enough to be stupid to be a flat-earther. You need to deny official authorities, believe in a conspiracy, and have an arrogant attitude of thinking of yourself as smarter than other despite being an idiot. So this is not a problem of some people simple being born with inefficient brains. More importantly, you seem to ignore the 9%. To seriously consider the earth maybe is flat is already pretty damn ridiculous. > It isn't trivial to prove the earth is flat Of course, because it isn't. If you meant it isn't trivial to prove it isn't flat, well, in general it is hard to disprove an idea that isn't specific. But take any actual model of flat Earth, describing the movement of the Moon on quite a low altitude and it's trivial to prove it's wrong simply by looking at the Moon and always seeing the same side regardless where you live.
sidewndr46 2y ago
it doesn't functionally apply anyways. The courts find that so long as the illegal search found some evidence of a crime, it can be admitted to court. The police just have to promise not to do it again
wat10000 2y ago
Most people don’t see the point without a recent memory of abuses. Much of the Bill of Rights reads as a list of grievances against the British (the 3rd Amendment being particularly obvious) and was driven by real problems the people had experienced. It’s a little bit like IT. When it’s working well, people think it isn’t doing anything.
m463 2y ago
we've pretty much stopped with the amendments anyway. Last few are basically politicians affecting themselves.
chrismcb 2y ago
And yet, terrorists aren't really a problem.
switch007 2y ago
It's amazing how much power terrorism hands the government. I'm sure that never been capitalised on of course

dmix 2y ago

this is a fun read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Big_(police_procedure) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Big_(police_procedure) > The use of this technique is essentially prohibited in some countries, including the United Kingdom[4] and the United States.[5] In Germany, which has high standards for what constitutes a voluntary confession, it may be more difficult to use confessions obtained by this technique.[5] The procedure has been used by police in Australia[6] and New Zealand,[7] and its use has been upheld by courts in both countries.

reverendsteveii 2y ago
Since we're doing the van halen "right now your government is doing things you think only happen in other countries" thing, here's one about a 15 year old who was so mentally disabled "“He was unable to even tie his shoelaces and his mother would have to do it for him", but that didn't stop him from being groomed by FBI agents to say things that count as conspiracy to commit terrorism. They recorded everything that he said without regard to the fact that he had “the mentality of a 6-year-old”, then waited until he turned 18 to arrest him so they could charge him as an adult and put him away for life. https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/18-year-old-arrested-on-terrorism-charges-is-mentally-like-a-child/ https://theintercept.com/2016/08/03/18-year-old-arrested-on-...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

woodrowbarlow 2y ago

another example to reinforce: ICE commonly self-issues "administrative warrants" for agents to present at a raid. these are not the same as judicial warrants, have not been reviewed by a judge, and do not have any legal power. but none of that is obvious to the person looking at a document that says "warrant" at the top. annotated example: https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/i-200_and_i-205_sample_annotated.pdf https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/i-200_and...

jandrese 2y ago
[flagged]
- woodrowbarlow 2y ago
  i will not, but thank you for your concern.
- jjtheblunt 2y ago
  That article doesn't support what you extrapolated from it.
- mperham 2y ago
  Are you advocating for "complying in advance"? That's how we get a dictatorship: rolling over rather than pushing back.
- Our_Benefactors 2y ago
  Unreadable cancer ads infested shithole website
- foobarchu 2y ago
  Refuse to comply with their illegal threats.
- Frederation 2y ago
  Wow. Scarred?
2y ago

zdragnar 2y ago

We know for a fact that high ranked government officials have lied on FISA warrants. The fact that there hasn't been any accountability for them, and that Congress is so resistant to changing the program, and the courts failing to uphold the Constitution, is a real tragedy.

eadmund 2y ago

> if we were debating the 4th amendment today, it wouldn't pass Neither would the 1st, the 2nd, maybe the 5th, the 6th is already in abeyance when the accusers are minors, and definitely not the 10th. Maybe the 3rd would be approved? Needless to say, I heartily approve of the entire Bill of Rights.

some_random 2y ago
The 3rd would be approved because it has a carve-out, soldiers can be quartered in private homes _during wartime_ as long as a law says it's ok. That exact same type of carve-out would be added to every amendment if it was proposed today.

some_random 2y ago

No amendment would pass with the possible exception of the 3rd (which already has the exact kind of wartime carve out the other amendments would receive), the modern discourse has very little respect for rights and liberties with a handful of highly politicized exceptions.

mandevil 2y ago
Right now no amendment can pass at all. You can look at when amendments pass, and most of the time they come in bunches, when either the parties are unusually close together or one party or the other is unusually powerful. Right now- with a nation balanced almost exactly 50-50 and very far apart- nothing like that can possibly pass.

programmerpass 2y ago

“we would be arguing”? I wouldn’t. I would argue it should be illegal for the police, media, and others who have significant roles in society to lie and that they should be criminally prosecuted. The only tragedy that I see is that most people seem to scream something in relation to free speech when the idea of criminally prosecuting folks for lying is mentioned. I prefer truthful discourse with serious consequences over whatever most call “free speech”.

SauciestGNU 2y ago
If this last election taught me anything, it's that people who share my beliefs about the sanctity of human rights are in a minority.

Etherlord87 2y ago

US survey 2021 Earth is flat, not round 10% agree 9% unsure 80% disagree With statistics like this, no state of affairs will surprise me. Perhaps needless to say, there's no reason to think whole 80% is reasonable; you'd expect a smooth gradient going across the 19%/80%, not through the 1% (which is lost in rounding I guess) but perhaps through most of the society, with only a small fraction of it being truly reasonable. The educational system succeeded in teaching writing and reading, and not with much more, not when it comes to masses.

s_m_t 2y ago
That doesn't seem too bad to me. It isn't trivial to prove the earth is flat. 10th percentile IQ seems to be around the functional illiteracy threshold. The military won't take them because as much as they have tried they can't seem to get that 10th percentile trained in just about anything. If such a person looks out into the distance, sees that things look flat and not like a sphere, and then watches some video with half-baked reasoning telling them they are right then I'm not sure how you could realistically convince them otherwise.
- FloorEgg 2y ago
  The assumption that everyone has equal capabilities can cause a lot of needless struggle and suffering. Similarly assumptions that an individual can't or won't grow or learn or improve can also lead to a lot of unnecessary struggle and suffering. Both things: that everyone's capabilities (and limits) are different and individuals can increase their capabilities can be and are true. So I can understand someone's concern that we have flat earthers, as well as your lack of concern.
- Etherlord87 2y ago
  To be convinced the Earth is flat is ridiculous on so many levels. You say they watch a youtube video confirming they're right in their primitive observation. OK, what about the easy availability of videos to the contrary? It's not enough to be stupid to be a flat-earther. You need to deny official authorities, believe in a conspiracy, and have an arrogant attitude of thinking of yourself as smarter than other despite being an idiot. So this is not a problem of some people simple being born with inefficient brains. More importantly, you seem to ignore the 9%. To seriously consider the earth maybe is flat is already pretty damn ridiculous. > It isn't trivial to prove the earth is flat Of course, because it isn't. If you meant it isn't trivial to prove it isn't flat, well, in general it is hard to disprove an idea that isn't specific. But take any actual model of flat Earth, describing the movement of the Moon on quite a low altitude and it's trivial to prove it's wrong simply by looking at the Moon and always seeing the same side regardless where you live.

sidewndr46 2y ago

it doesn't functionally apply anyways. The courts find that so long as the illegal search found some evidence of a crime, it can be admitted to court. The police just have to promise not to do it again

wat10000 2y ago

Most people don’t see the point without a recent memory of abuses. Much of the Bill of Rights reads as a list of grievances against the British (the 3rd Amendment being particularly obvious) and was driven by real problems the people had experienced. It’s a little bit like IT. When it’s working well, people think it isn’t doing anything.

m463 2y ago

we've pretty much stopped with the amendments anyway. Last few are basically politicians affecting themselves.

chrismcb 2y ago

And yet, terrorists aren't really a problem.

switch007 2y ago

It's amazing how much power terrorism hands the government. I'm sure that never been capitalised on of course