5 ms·

People seem to lark on and on about how it has better "default moderation" than Mastodon.

verdverm 2y ago
It's not that it is "better" but that the choice is individual, not up to the mastodon server. In Mastodon, you trade Elon for some other group of individuals, so what happens if they make decision on moderation or content you do not agree with? ATProto is designed around accounts that are independent of data host, application, and moderation, all in the name of giving users individual control over these things. It's like if every Mastodon user ran their own server, but without the overhead
- VectorLock 2y ago
  >It's like if every Mastodon user ran their own server No, it's like every Mastodon user used the same server, and all the coordination is done by one server that nobody can replicate.
  - verdverm 2y ago
    Every user in ATProto gets their own database that amounts to a tar file (technically sqlite with car export format) This is nothing like having a single server for every user. Perhaps you are confusing Bluesky (one app) with ATProtocol the shared network? There are already independent servers and apps operating separate from Bluesky
- fc417fc802 2y ago
  Are you suggesting the "big few" can't largely censor a given account? I don't see how ATProto is doing noticeably better than the scenario where a large ActivityPub instance blocks your external account.
  - verdverm 2y ago
    Generally, yes. Currently, because Bluesky requires the use of their labeler if you use their app, this could happen. Two points of note 1. You can participate in Bluesky without the Bluesky app, so you can remove this requirement by using an alternative app 2. The most blocked account is blocked by around 0.25% of the full network (https://clearsky.app/ https://clearsky.app/) This second point does not account for users banned from Bluesky by Bluesky for breaking the ToS or PDS abuse.
    - fc417fc802 2y ago
      > does not account for users banned from Bluesky by Bluesky for breaking the ToS or PDS abuse. Then you are missing the point. I am asking how much censorship power the largest node in the network has. If being blocked by the largest provider means 95% of users can't see me anymore then the situation is strictly worse than Mastodon vs ActivityPub-at-large.
      - verdverm 2y ago
        What did you do to get banned? Most people who make this claim are unwilling to share the behavior that led to it. Bans are not arbitrary, nor is anyone obligated to host or show your speech ATProto is young compared to the alternatives, give the network time to build out an ecosystem and the resilience we need.
        fc417fc802 2y ago
        First you made incorrect and misleading statements. Then when I point it out you try to rhetorically shift blame on to me. To answer your misleading and irrelevant question, I have never been banned by Bluesky. What did you do to get banned on Mastodon? Do you understand that "moderation" and "banned for violating the ToS" are one and the same? ATProto is not any better than ActivityPub (ie Mastodon) regarding the impact of network effects on moderation. The "big few" retain their outsized influence with both protocols, at least as far as I am aware. If there is a technical misunderstanding about this on my part then do please point it out. Moreover, the current situation is significantly worse on ATProto because the vast majority of the network currently relies on a single provider. To be clear, I am not opposed to ATProto. I am only opposed to inaccurate technical comparisons.
- immibis 2y ago
  You have the opportunity to demonstrate this. I am banned from Bluesky. (They didn't tell me why - just a generic "you violated community guidelines") Tell me, concretely, how people can choose to continue following me, even though I am banned. Profile: immibis.bsky.social
  - verdverm 2y ago
    Create an account you own instead of having someone else run it. Maybe you can get your data, maybe you can ask Bluesky for a review (there were bugs and scaling issues against bot networks that cause false positives) I'm not seeing that handle resolve in the normal places. Do you have the DID? You should use a custom domain so that you can control the the reference and lookup. You can run your own PDS and manage complete account lifecycle
    - immibis 2y ago
      So after you're banned from Bluesky you create another account on a different server and hope the admins of your original server, which still hosts all the people you want to follow, don't block your new account from interacting with their server? You said it was different from Mastodon, but how is this different from Mastodon?
      - verdverm 2y ago
        I have my own domain already attached, I can point it at any server and my identity on the network remains the same. When you use a *.bsky.social handle, you have not made yourself independent and resilient to arbitrary decision by the org that manages that service
        immibis 2y ago
        So that's the same as on Mastodon. What's the difference again?
        2y ago

It's not that it is "better" but that the choice is individual, not up to the mastodon server. In Mastodon, you trade Elon for some other group of individuals, so what happens if they make decision on moderation or content you do not agree with? ATProto is designed around accounts that are independent of data host, application, and moderation, all in the name of giving users individual control over these things. It's like if every Mastodon user ran their own server, but without the overhead

VectorLock 2y ago
>It's like if every Mastodon user ran their own server No, it's like every Mastodon user used the same server, and all the coordination is done by one server that nobody can replicate.
- verdverm 2y ago
  Every user in ATProto gets their own database that amounts to a tar file (technically sqlite with car export format) This is nothing like having a single server for every user. Perhaps you are confusing Bluesky (one app) with ATProtocol the shared network? There are already independent servers and apps operating separate from Bluesky
fc417fc802 2y ago
Are you suggesting the "big few" can't largely censor a given account? I don't see how ATProto is doing noticeably better than the scenario where a large ActivityPub instance blocks your external account.
- verdverm 2y ago
  Generally, yes. Currently, because Bluesky requires the use of their labeler if you use their app, this could happen. Two points of note 1. You can participate in Bluesky without the Bluesky app, so you can remove this requirement by using an alternative app 2. The most blocked account is blocked by around 0.25% of the full network (https://clearsky.app/ https://clearsky.app/) This second point does not account for users banned from Bluesky by Bluesky for breaking the ToS or PDS abuse.
  - fc417fc802 2y ago
    > does not account for users banned from Bluesky by Bluesky for breaking the ToS or PDS abuse. Then you are missing the point. I am asking how much censorship power the largest node in the network has. If being blocked by the largest provider means 95% of users can't see me anymore then the situation is strictly worse than Mastodon vs ActivityPub-at-large.
    - verdverm 2y ago
      What did you do to get banned? Most people who make this claim are unwilling to share the behavior that led to it. Bans are not arbitrary, nor is anyone obligated to host or show your speech ATProto is young compared to the alternatives, give the network time to build out an ecosystem and the resilience we need.
      - fc417fc802 2y ago
        First you made incorrect and misleading statements. Then when I point it out you try to rhetorically shift blame on to me. To answer your misleading and irrelevant question, I have never been banned by Bluesky. What did you do to get banned on Mastodon? Do you understand that "moderation" and "banned for violating the ToS" are one and the same? ATProto is not any better than ActivityPub (ie Mastodon) regarding the impact of network effects on moderation. The "big few" retain their outsized influence with both protocols, at least as far as I am aware. If there is a technical misunderstanding about this on my part then do please point it out. Moreover, the current situation is significantly worse on ATProto because the vast majority of the network currently relies on a single provider. To be clear, I am not opposed to ATProto. I am only opposed to inaccurate technical comparisons.
immibis 2y ago
You have the opportunity to demonstrate this. I am banned from Bluesky. (They didn't tell me why - just a generic "you violated community guidelines") Tell me, concretely, how people can choose to continue following me, even though I am banned. Profile: immibis.bsky.social
- verdverm 2y ago
  Create an account you own instead of having someone else run it. Maybe you can get your data, maybe you can ask Bluesky for a review (there were bugs and scaling issues against bot networks that cause false positives) I'm not seeing that handle resolve in the normal places. Do you have the DID? You should use a custom domain so that you can control the the reference and lookup. You can run your own PDS and manage complete account lifecycle
  - immibis 2y ago
    So after you're banned from Bluesky you create another account on a different server and hope the admins of your original server, which still hosts all the people you want to follow, don't block your new account from interacting with their server? You said it was different from Mastodon, but how is this different from Mastodon?
    - verdverm 2y ago
      I have my own domain already attached, I can point it at any server and my identity on the network remains the same. When you use a *.bsky.social handle, you have not made yourself independent and resilient to arbitrary decision by the org that manages that service
      - immibis 2y ago
        So that's the same as on Mastodon. What's the difference again?
        2y ago