5 ms·

GoP, the big champion of states rights... unless you do something they don't like.

by duxup 2y ago

AnthonyMouse 2y ago
[flagged]
- duxup 2y ago
  Toll lanes exist many places and would seem to violate your rule. I don't think that's the issue, and explicitly that's not the reason the administration has given for their answer.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - duxup 2y ago
      >The federal government often issues exceptions, which they're allowed to do even if they shouldn't. Are you saying the government issues exceptions for every toll lane?
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/23/301 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/23/301
- fzeroracer 2y ago
  If you're taking 'post roads' to mean the federal government has control over every single road across the US that is an insane overreach of federal power. Especially when it is specifically enumerated for the sake of delivering mail and has nothing to do with other use.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    They have the power to build post roads, which have always been general purpose roads used by everyone and in modern times it means federally-funded interstate highways. But those are the roads that go from New Jersey to Manhattan.
    - fzeroracer 2y ago
      Where do you think the congestion rates were being applied?
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        At the offramps of interstate highways.
        fzeroracer 2y ago
        Correct, so how does your post road logic apply when the toll is for entering roads constructed by and maintained by the state?
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        "We're not tolling the highway, we're just tolling the cars that come from the highway" is an obvious attempt to defeat the purpose of the rule.
        fzeroracer 2y ago
        No, it's not. It's a toll on entering the area period, whether from highway or from 60th street. You can still fully use the highway, including getting around the area in question. I'm not even from NYC and it took all of two minutes to identify how the congestion relief zone works, who it applies to and who it does not. You can make the argument that it's unfair or a regressive tax. But that is not an argument for the federal government to make or interfere with, that is local policy. Especially not when clearly using federal overreach as a bludgeon to force them to comply.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  OK, but it has to be a US highway (or Interstate) for that to work, doesn't it? If the state built the road, the federal government doesn't get to yell "establishing post roads" and suddenly start dictating the rules.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    It is though. New York is the intersection of several interstate highways and the rule is a condition of federal highway funding.
    - kccqzy 2y ago
      The interstate highway in Manhattan is located much further north, between George Washington bridge and Alexander Hamilton bridge. It's far away from the congestion zone.
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        You're referring to I-95. There is also I-78, I-478, I-278, I-495, etc. And even I-95 is only 6 miles away. It's hardly so far away that nobody would be coming from there.
        nobody9999 2y ago
        And none of those roads exist within the congestion zone. In fact, as long as you remain on the highways (The West Side Highway and FDR drives -- both of which are local/state roads) on the periphery of the zone, you pay no fee. Which makes your argument completely specious since there are no Interstate highways within the confines of the congestion zone.
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        They go directly into the congestion zone. I-78 goes through the Holland Tunnel and drops you out in lower Manhattan. Once you're in New York, every exit is in the congestion zone until the end of the highway. Moreover, the highway's purpose is to carry people into Manhattan. Discouraging people from using the interstate highway to go to New York is the thing to be prevented.
- kccqzy 2y ago
  There are already tolls for people who live outside of New York and commute in: the Holland Tunnel, the Lincoln Tunnel, the George Washington Bridge, the Bayonne Bridge… This congestion pricing is more for people who live in other parts of New York (like the Upper West Side, or Queens) to commute to the most congested part of New York. By your logic, the administration should have made Lincoln Tunnel and Holland Tunnel free.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    > By your logic, the administration should have made Lincoln Tunnel and Holland Tunnel free. That is correct, they should do that, and eliminate all other tolls on interstate roads.
    - kccqzy 2y ago
      Then why did the administration not do that? Because they cancelled congestion pricing with reasons different from yours.
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        There are several problems with tolls (privacy invasive, collections infrastructure eats an unreasonable proportion of the revenue, etc.) that should cause them to never be used, but the relevant one is putting a disproportionate burden on travelers from outside the jurisdiction. Tolls that only pay for road maintenance and aren't intended to deter travel might not do this (even if they're still net-negative overall), so there is a stronger case to be made that they should be allowed, but the purpose of congestion pricing is explicitly to deter travel from people who for any reason can't use mass transit, and those people are disproportionately from outside the jurisdiction. If that was their actual reason they would be doing exactly this. Though they should still get rid of the other tolls.
- righthand 2y ago
  The streets of Manhattan are not “the rest of the US’s” streets to decide what to do with. The people voted for lower congestion, this is what the people that live there want. Correct, the exact idea is to put tolls on people who do not pay for or live on our streets.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - righthand 2y ago
      The streets of Manhattan are not an interstate even though they are poorly regulated as an interstate under antiquated law. This should rightly fall on the people that live there.
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        The streets of Manhattan are within spitting distance of the state border and contain a high volume of interstate traffic. There is nothing antiquated about regarding them as what they are.
        righthand 2y ago
        The law is not about regulating property that is “close enough” it is about regulating interstate travel. Congestion pricing does not include the roads that would charge for interstate travel, only the roads within the city. Furthermore if the Potus wants revocation power of approvals then congress should grant the Potus that power. You don’t get to just make up powers that aren’t written down. That’s why the courts will stop this stupid meaningless revocation via memo.
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        > The law is not about regulating property that is “close enough” it is about regulating interstate travel. Congestion pricing does not include the roads that would charge for interstate travel, only the roads within the city. The concern is that "the roads within the city" are being used for interstate travel. People use roads in New Jersey to travel to the New Jersey / New York border and then use roads in New York to travel to their destination in New York; that's interstate travel. Their origin and destination are in different states. And in particular, their eligibility to vote is in a different state than the one imposing the fee, which is why there is a case for federal involvement. > Furthermore if the Potus wants revocation power of approvals then congress should grant the Potus that power. Which has already happened. There is a federal ban on tolls if you accept federal highway money (which everybody does) unless the federal government grants an exception, which they're now refusing to do.

GoP, the big champion of states rights... unless you do something they don't like.

by duxup 2y ago

GoP, the big champion of states rights... unless you do something they don't like.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago

[flagged]

duxup 2y ago
Toll lanes exist many places and would seem to violate your rule. I don't think that's the issue, and explicitly that's not the reason the administration has given for their answer.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - duxup 2y ago
    >The federal government often issues exceptions, which they're allowed to do even if they shouldn't. Are you saying the government issues exceptions for every toll lane?
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/23/301 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/23/301
fzeroracer 2y ago
If you're taking 'post roads' to mean the federal government has control over every single road across the US that is an insane overreach of federal power. Especially when it is specifically enumerated for the sake of delivering mail and has nothing to do with other use.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  They have the power to build post roads, which have always been general purpose roads used by everyone and in modern times it means federally-funded interstate highways. But those are the roads that go from New Jersey to Manhattan.
  - fzeroracer 2y ago
    Where do you think the congestion rates were being applied?
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      At the offramps of interstate highways.
      - fzeroracer 2y ago
        Correct, so how does your post road logic apply when the toll is for entering roads constructed by and maintained by the state?
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        "We're not tolling the highway, we're just tolling the cars that come from the highway" is an obvious attempt to defeat the purpose of the rule.
        fzeroracer 2y ago
        No, it's not. It's a toll on entering the area period, whether from highway or from 60th street. You can still fully use the highway, including getting around the area in question. I'm not even from NYC and it took all of two minutes to identify how the congestion relief zone works, who it applies to and who it does not. You can make the argument that it's unfair or a regressive tax. But that is not an argument for the federal government to make or interfere with, that is local policy. Especially not when clearly using federal overreach as a bludgeon to force them to comply.
AnimalMuppet 2y ago
OK, but it has to be a US highway (or Interstate) for that to work, doesn't it? If the state built the road, the federal government doesn't get to yell "establishing post roads" and suddenly start dictating the rules.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  It is though. New York is the intersection of several interstate highways and the rule is a condition of federal highway funding.
  - kccqzy 2y ago
    The interstate highway in Manhattan is located much further north, between George Washington bridge and Alexander Hamilton bridge. It's far away from the congestion zone.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      You're referring to I-95. There is also I-78, I-478, I-278, I-495, etc. And even I-95 is only 6 miles away. It's hardly so far away that nobody would be coming from there.
      - nobody9999 2y ago
        And none of those roads exist within the congestion zone. In fact, as long as you remain on the highways (The West Side Highway and FDR drives -- both of which are local/state roads) on the periphery of the zone, you pay no fee. Which makes your argument completely specious since there are no Interstate highways within the confines of the congestion zone.
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        They go directly into the congestion zone. I-78 goes through the Holland Tunnel and drops you out in lower Manhattan. Once you're in New York, every exit is in the congestion zone until the end of the highway. Moreover, the highway's purpose is to carry people into Manhattan. Discouraging people from using the interstate highway to go to New York is the thing to be prevented.
kccqzy 2y ago
There are already tolls for people who live outside of New York and commute in: the Holland Tunnel, the Lincoln Tunnel, the George Washington Bridge, the Bayonne Bridge… This congestion pricing is more for people who live in other parts of New York (like the Upper West Side, or Queens) to commute to the most congested part of New York. By your logic, the administration should have made Lincoln Tunnel and Holland Tunnel free.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  > By your logic, the administration should have made Lincoln Tunnel and Holland Tunnel free. That is correct, they should do that, and eliminate all other tolls on interstate roads.
  - kccqzy 2y ago
    Then why did the administration not do that? Because they cancelled congestion pricing with reasons different from yours.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      There are several problems with tolls (privacy invasive, collections infrastructure eats an unreasonable proportion of the revenue, etc.) that should cause them to never be used, but the relevant one is putting a disproportionate burden on travelers from outside the jurisdiction. Tolls that only pay for road maintenance and aren't intended to deter travel might not do this (even if they're still net-negative overall), so there is a stronger case to be made that they should be allowed, but the purpose of congestion pricing is explicitly to deter travel from people who for any reason can't use mass transit, and those people are disproportionately from outside the jurisdiction. If that was their actual reason they would be doing exactly this. Though they should still get rid of the other tolls.
righthand 2y ago
The streets of Manhattan are not “the rest of the US’s” streets to decide what to do with. The people voted for lower congestion, this is what the people that live there want. Correct, the exact idea is to put tolls on people who do not pay for or live on our streets.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - righthand 2y ago
    The streets of Manhattan are not an interstate even though they are poorly regulated as an interstate under antiquated law. This should rightly fall on the people that live there.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      The streets of Manhattan are within spitting distance of the state border and contain a high volume of interstate traffic. There is nothing antiquated about regarding them as what they are.
      - righthand 2y ago
        The law is not about regulating property that is “close enough” it is about regulating interstate travel. Congestion pricing does not include the roads that would charge for interstate travel, only the roads within the city. Furthermore if the Potus wants revocation power of approvals then congress should grant the Potus that power. You don’t get to just make up powers that aren’t written down. That’s why the courts will stop this stupid meaningless revocation via memo.
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        > The law is not about regulating property that is “close enough” it is about regulating interstate travel. Congestion pricing does not include the roads that would charge for interstate travel, only the roads within the city. The concern is that "the roads within the city" are being used for interstate travel. People use roads in New Jersey to travel to the New Jersey / New York border and then use roads in New York to travel to their destination in New York; that's interstate travel. Their origin and destination are in different states. And in particular, their eligibility to vote is in a different state than the one imposing the fee, which is why there is a case for federal involvement. > Furthermore if the Potus wants revocation power of approvals then congress should grant the Potus that power. Which has already happened. There is a federal ban on tolls if you accept federal highway money (which everybody does) unless the federal government grants an exception, which they're now refusing to do.