3 ms·

I recently moved my software business mostly off US services. Diversifying away from the US is one of the most important things all of us outside the US can do

by tensor 2y ago

I recently moved my software business mostly off US services. Diversifying away from the US is one of the most important things all of us outside the US can do for the free world right now.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
How big is your business? Is it relevant in the grand scheme of thing, or a rounding error in statistics?
- tensor 2y ago
  Small, so very easy for me to do and little impact, much harder obviously for large businesses. Still, I would flag use of US services as a major risk for non-US businesses right now. Having previously run a >200 person software company, I probably wouldn't immediately move all services to non-US alternatives, but I sure would have a migration plan ready and alternative explored and selected in case shit hit the fan for US software. Given the current state of things, I think it's entirely plausible that US services are either hit with things like tariffs, or end up suffering US state censorship at some point.
  - voidr 2y ago
    > end up suffering US state censorship at some point. You had a higher risk for that with the democrats, remember the AI videos that upset Kamala and Gavin? European countries have a far worse track record of censorship. > Still, I would flag use of US services as a major risk for non-US businesses right now. > Given the current state of things, I think it's entirely plausible that US services are either hit with things like tariffs, or end up suffering US state censorship at some point. Who made your phone, your computer and the OS your computer is running?
    - tensor 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - voidr 2y ago
        > Oh look it's a Trump propagandist. Hello! If it's propaganda then I guess it would take you no effort to prove me wrong instead of writing nonsense. I guess you are now going to prove that this didn't happen: https://www.gov.ca.gov/2024/09/17/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-combat-deepfake-election-content/ https://www.gov.ca.gov/2024/09/17/governor-newsom-signs-bill... Guess some Trump propagandist infiltrated California in 2024. So far I haven't heard any similar plans of censorship from team red, but since I don't have a dog in the race, point it out if I missed it.
tailspin2019 2y ago
Me too over the last few years. Being European I also just like supporting companies closer to home where possible.
voidr 2y ago
I'm an EU citizen, I would like the EU to be a competitive place in terms of software, however at the moment I have to say that it's a hostile place for software development and software as a service. They are making too many dumb and potentially dangerous laws, just look at the cookie consent laws that accomplish nothing but erased millions of euros. They AI laws and aspirations make me not even consider making any software that runs AI in the EU. I don't want to harm people, but it's next to impossible to make the distilled LLM I'm using to not say occasionally dumb shit. Just because an AI is "dangerous" doesn't mean you cannot use it in a place where it poses no real risk.
- tensor 2y ago
  Most software businesses operate internationally, so the EU regulation is something you'll have to deal with no matter where you host, assuming you sell into the EU. I don't believe that hosting in the EU means you need to treat non-EU jurisdictions with EU law. Note too that places like OVH have data centres in multiple countries, just like AWS and Azure do. I can't comment on taxes for companies registered in the EU as I don't live there, but again, where you are headquartered as a business is up to you, and there are many choices. In terms of being competitive, some European services like OVH, Gandi, and Mistral are absolutely competitive internationally. For AI, Mistral is up there with the best of them.
  - voidr 2y ago
    > I don't believe that hosting in the EU means you need to treat non-EU jurisdictions with EU law. Let's say to that I want to develop something that uses an "evil" AI and I only want to sell to countries outside of the EU, I just can't do that because during development I would be suffocated by unhelpful regulations while someone in the US doing the same would be not. > Most software businesses operate internationally, so the EU regulation is something you'll have to deal with no matter where you host, assuming you sell into the EU. Having my whole business being at risk is not the same thing as only having a significant market being at risk. > where you are headquartered as a business is up to you, and there are many choices. Yes and the problem I was pointing out is that I would unlikely to pick an EU country because broken legislation that would hinder me is not something I want to deal with. The EU problem is that legislation that is not around manufacturing is very knee-jerky, I don't feel like it would be a safe place for my potential software business, because legislation seems to be driven by headlines rather than rationality and the people making the legislations don't look too competent based on the end results. > In terms of being competitive, some European services like OVH, Gandi, and Mistral are absolutely competitive internationally Azure, AWS, Digital Ocean, ChatGPT, Meta, DeepSeek are a league of their own.

by tensor 2y ago

I recently moved my software business mostly off US services. Diversifying away from the US is one of the most important things all of us outside the US can do for the free world right now.

FirmwareBurner 2y ago

How big is your business? Is it relevant in the grand scheme of thing, or a rounding error in statistics?

tensor 2y ago
Small, so very easy for me to do and little impact, much harder obviously for large businesses. Still, I would flag use of US services as a major risk for non-US businesses right now. Having previously run a >200 person software company, I probably wouldn't immediately move all services to non-US alternatives, but I sure would have a migration plan ready and alternative explored and selected in case shit hit the fan for US software. Given the current state of things, I think it's entirely plausible that US services are either hit with things like tariffs, or end up suffering US state censorship at some point.
- voidr 2y ago
  > end up suffering US state censorship at some point. You had a higher risk for that with the democrats, remember the AI videos that upset Kamala and Gavin? European countries have a far worse track record of censorship. > Still, I would flag use of US services as a major risk for non-US businesses right now. > Given the current state of things, I think it's entirely plausible that US services are either hit with things like tariffs, or end up suffering US state censorship at some point. Who made your phone, your computer and the OS your computer is running?
  - tensor 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - voidr 2y ago
      > Oh look it's a Trump propagandist. Hello! If it's propaganda then I guess it would take you no effort to prove me wrong instead of writing nonsense. I guess you are now going to prove that this didn't happen: https://www.gov.ca.gov/2024/09/17/governor-newsom-signs-bills-to-combat-deepfake-election-content/ https://www.gov.ca.gov/2024/09/17/governor-newsom-signs-bill... Guess some Trump propagandist infiltrated California in 2024. So far I haven't heard any similar plans of censorship from team red, but since I don't have a dog in the race, point it out if I missed it.

tailspin2019 2y ago

Me too over the last few years. Being European I also just like supporting companies closer to home where possible.

voidr 2y ago

I'm an EU citizen, I would like the EU to be a competitive place in terms of software, however at the moment I have to say that it's a hostile place for software development and software as a service. They are making too many dumb and potentially dangerous laws, just look at the cookie consent laws that accomplish nothing but erased millions of euros. They AI laws and aspirations make me not even consider making any software that runs AI in the EU. I don't want to harm people, but it's next to impossible to make the distilled LLM I'm using to not say occasionally dumb shit. Just because an AI is "dangerous" doesn't mean you cannot use it in a place where it poses no real risk.

tensor 2y ago
Most software businesses operate internationally, so the EU regulation is something you'll have to deal with no matter where you host, assuming you sell into the EU. I don't believe that hosting in the EU means you need to treat non-EU jurisdictions with EU law. Note too that places like OVH have data centres in multiple countries, just like AWS and Azure do. I can't comment on taxes for companies registered in the EU as I don't live there, but again, where you are headquartered as a business is up to you, and there are many choices. In terms of being competitive, some European services like OVH, Gandi, and Mistral are absolutely competitive internationally. For AI, Mistral is up there with the best of them.
- voidr 2y ago
  > I don't believe that hosting in the EU means you need to treat non-EU jurisdictions with EU law. Let's say to that I want to develop something that uses an "evil" AI and I only want to sell to countries outside of the EU, I just can't do that because during development I would be suffocated by unhelpful regulations while someone in the US doing the same would be not. > Most software businesses operate internationally, so the EU regulation is something you'll have to deal with no matter where you host, assuming you sell into the EU. Having my whole business being at risk is not the same thing as only having a significant market being at risk. > where you are headquartered as a business is up to you, and there are many choices. Yes and the problem I was pointing out is that I would unlikely to pick an EU country because broken legislation that would hinder me is not something I want to deal with. The EU problem is that legislation that is not around manufacturing is very knee-jerky, I don't feel like it would be a safe place for my potential software business, because legislation seems to be driven by headlines rather than rationality and the people making the legislations don't look too competent based on the end results. > In terms of being competitive, some European services like OVH, Gandi, and Mistral are absolutely competitive internationally Azure, AWS, Digital Ocean, ChatGPT, Meta, DeepSeek are a league of their own.