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I can read other languages too. --- Calling "The Atlantic" agitprop while considering Breitbart a valid source of news, ouch. That raises a point though. An

I can read other languages too. --- Calling "The Atlantic" agitprop while considering Breitbart a valid source of news, ouch. That raises a point though. An American has to work really hard to get a non-distorted view--not only on the world, but primarily on their own home. Like the Soviets think like the Soviets, so is a large part of America drown in a complete clusterfuck of information distortion. You think NYT is on the end of a spectrum, but no, they will never deliver that damning analysis. Sure, they might sound critical compared to the Breitbarts, the fox news etc. But they will always stop short before dots are connected, they will not deliver that damning conclusion that threatens their position. America has a problem with free and independent journalism. It has always had that problem of media moguls and oligarchs. And the more we normalize the bad and the stupid, the less you will be able to find the real critic. You might think people are overreacting, being dramatic. I understand, because we have a tendency to perceive things as normal, and the way press won't deliver you a complete picture. Critical news? Sure! Understanding? That goes to far! ------------------- So in a strange way you remind me to be a bit compassionate. As I realize this is a hard exercise to do, especially if identity and beliefs have formed in such a toxic environment. There is not a big chance you are waiting for my advice, but nonetheless I offer it in earnest. 1. Never fall into the trap of binary thinking. 2. Always ask yourself if what you observe is what is normal, good, constructive behavior or something else. 3. Do not excuse bad behavior. The theater, the chaos, the culture war, it is meant to get your permission so that who hides behind the Project can go further. 4. The goal is to make you mentally complicit, to lock you in. They need your consent, because the USA is not as advanced as the Soviet Union in this aspect. Yet! But they have the tech now to accelerate. 5. Realize that the goal is turn the clock back. No social democracy, no worker rights, private ownership of public affairs. This is only possible if you step away.

hagbard_c 2y ago
You do notice that I put Breitbart on one side of the spectrum and The Atlantic (et. al.) on the other side? Both have an agenda. You quoted The Atlantic, twice. I did not - and would not - quote Breitbart because I'm aware of their agenda. If they published something worth discussing I would look for other sources to confirm their statements and add those to the discussion. You just quoted The Atlantic without any verification. It is not just Americans who need to 'work hard to get a non-distorted view', this is true for any nation on the planet. I am not an American but I do read some American media, this includes the ones I mentioned - from Breitbart to HuffPo/The Atlantic/etc. I also read Swedish and Dutch media as well as German and French and British. All of these show the same pattern, in some cases - Swedish and Dutch media in particular - the variety between different 'legacy' outlets is small and shrinking due to either consolidation (nearly all Dutch newspapers are now owned by DPG Media, a Belgian company) or dependency on state financing (Swedish 'presstöd/mediestöd' is supposed to foster a free press but actually produces the opposite).
- exceptione 2y ago
  "Both have an agenda" What you imply is false balance. You claim neutrality whilst being occupied by extreme right viewpoints, given your rants about so called TDS. Those disinformation outlets are meant to influence you, and they do. If you want, you can read other papers of people well versed in these topics. Anna Applebaum is a lady that is also well versed in these topics, as is Snyder. But there are not many outlets that do allow for these kind of deeper analysis (no, opinion stuff is not the same as analysis, how much some people want to sell it as such). They have written books as well, but I think they publish on the Atlantic as well. Your confusion is something understandable, because in a way you are right: the way traditional media work, precisely that is abused by those actors we talk about. And they are absolutely ignorant about that. They give literal quotes, they put them into headlines even. They behave like an amnesia patient, when the Kremlin says "A" it will be put in the newspaper. The next day Peskov says "we never mentioned A, you do", it will be put in the newspaper too. On and on. This way actors can sow distrust and confusion. Some people will pick headline 1, because it fits their beliefs. Some people will pick headline 2, because it fits their beliefs. Let the media quote stuff related to culture wars and you can select multiple strata of people with different messages. Clever? Yes. Paralyzing? Yes. Divisive? Yes. Ripping apart society? Yes. Death to truth? Also yes. Also, do not underestimate the way news organizations do almost completely rely on the feeds of press agencies. The critical filtering, selection, wording and timed release happens there. The consolidation of media is very worrying indeed, DPG media is gobbling everything up. Till now there is a strict separation of editorial boards and corporate interest, but when that dam breaks we are fucked like those Americans are now. But then still, they would not be able to push too idiotic stuff because the public broadcasters do not report to corporate owners, and the disconnect cannot be too large. They keep the ecosystem accountable. So, now you might understand why right wing populists attack public broadcasters. Why non-loyal scientists and experts are cleaned out immediately. Due to attacks from the lunatic FVD ("the moon landing is fake") and party-with-one-member PVV the Dutch broadcasting service NOS have to go undercover now to do their reporting. Americans will not get much chance to know about the mechanics at play, the play book of the new autocrats, as topics like this are even on HN closed right away when hitting #1. This must be minimized, this must be normalized. If you are pro democracy, these days are dark. Really dark. Trump or those other players in the theater are just a distraction. They do the work, they draw all the attention away from what they try to normalize. What kind of people are in for a world that want to install "might makes right", to end the rule based order where smaller players can be autonomous, both on level of society and the world. With all things that happen, both small and big, ask yourself if this complies with norms, or requires you to look away. If you do the former, those crazies have a hard time to distract you with transgenders and "aliens".

hagbard_c 2y ago

You do notice that I put Breitbart on one side of the spectrum and The Atlantic (et. al.) on the other side? Both have an agenda. You quoted The Atlantic, twice. I did not - and would not - quote Breitbart because I'm aware of their agenda. If they published something worth discussing I would look for other sources to confirm their statements and add those to the discussion. You just quoted The Atlantic without any verification. It is not just Americans who need to 'work hard to get a non-distorted view', this is true for any nation on the planet. I am not an American but I do read some American media, this includes the ones I mentioned - from Breitbart to HuffPo/The Atlantic/etc. I also read Swedish and Dutch media as well as German and French and British. All of these show the same pattern, in some cases - Swedish and Dutch media in particular - the variety between different 'legacy' outlets is small and shrinking due to either consolidation (nearly all Dutch newspapers are now owned by DPG Media, a Belgian company) or dependency on state financing (Swedish 'presstöd/mediestöd' is supposed to foster a free press but actually produces the opposite).

exceptione 2y ago
"Both have an agenda" What you imply is false balance. You claim neutrality whilst being occupied by extreme right viewpoints, given your rants about so called TDS. Those disinformation outlets are meant to influence you, and they do. If you want, you can read other papers of people well versed in these topics. Anna Applebaum is a lady that is also well versed in these topics, as is Snyder. But there are not many outlets that do allow for these kind of deeper analysis (no, opinion stuff is not the same as analysis, how much some people want to sell it as such). They have written books as well, but I think they publish on the Atlantic as well. Your confusion is something understandable, because in a way you are right: the way traditional media work, precisely that is abused by those actors we talk about. And they are absolutely ignorant about that. They give literal quotes, they put them into headlines even. They behave like an amnesia patient, when the Kremlin says "A" it will be put in the newspaper. The next day Peskov says "we never mentioned A, you do", it will be put in the newspaper too. On and on. This way actors can sow distrust and confusion. Some people will pick headline 1, because it fits their beliefs. Some people will pick headline 2, because it fits their beliefs. Let the media quote stuff related to culture wars and you can select multiple strata of people with different messages. Clever? Yes. Paralyzing? Yes. Divisive? Yes. Ripping apart society? Yes. Death to truth? Also yes. Also, do not underestimate the way news organizations do almost completely rely on the feeds of press agencies. The critical filtering, selection, wording and timed release happens there. The consolidation of media is very worrying indeed, DPG media is gobbling everything up. Till now there is a strict separation of editorial boards and corporate interest, but when that dam breaks we are fucked like those Americans are now. But then still, they would not be able to push too idiotic stuff because the public broadcasters do not report to corporate owners, and the disconnect cannot be too large. They keep the ecosystem accountable. So, now you might understand why right wing populists attack public broadcasters. Why non-loyal scientists and experts are cleaned out immediately. Due to attacks from the lunatic FVD ("the moon landing is fake") and party-with-one-member PVV the Dutch broadcasting service NOS have to go undercover now to do their reporting. Americans will not get much chance to know about the mechanics at play, the play book of the new autocrats, as topics like this are even on HN closed right away when hitting #1. This must be minimized, this must be normalized. If you are pro democracy, these days are dark. Really dark. Trump or those other players in the theater are just a distraction. They do the work, they draw all the attention away from what they try to normalize. What kind of people are in for a world that want to install "might makes right", to end the rule based order where smaller players can be autonomous, both on level of society and the world. With all things that happen, both small and big, ask yourself if this complies with norms, or requires you to look away. If you do the former, those crazies have a hard time to distract you with transgenders and "aliens".