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> Spring Boot gives you a set of dependencies that all work together. But spring boot deps is infamous meme. > Then you don't have to spend time messing aroun

> Spring Boot gives you a set of dependencies that all work together. But spring boot deps is infamous meme. > Then you don't have to spend time messing around with things like OAuth and authentication Yeah. The funny thing is reality is quite complicated and spring supports a lot of (almost) documented cases. But 99% javaspring developers do not care. I met quite a lot of experienced devs and only 2 of them know how to optimize application start or which errors Kafka wrapper would not retry and so on. Half of the non-default situations are solved via reinventing the wheel because of a lack of understanding of nuances. I can't say people are dumb, many of those devs are smart. I tend to say that ultra-framework kills people's expertise and in the long term hardly saves resources.

okeuro49 2y ago
> I tend to say that ultra-framework kills people's expertise and in the long term hardly saves resources. You can use as much of Spring or as little as you want. Don't want Hibernate? Use JDBC template. I have noticed that people who don't use a framework, just end up inventing their own bespoke framework, which unlike Spring, is not documented and has no help available online.
- nprateem 2y ago
  It's a paradox as old as time itself. Otherwise intelligent devs assume they can do a better job without all the "complication" and "bloat", but then just end up with homegrown unmaintainable crap that does half of what the frameworks offer for significantly more effort. It's either stupidity or arrogance.
  - optician_owl 2y ago
    > all the "complication" and "bloat", but then just end up with homegrown unmaintainable crap that does half of what the frameworks offer for significantly more effort. I don't see how you deduct the conclusion of reinventing wheels is the only solution of overcomplex and far from ideal frameworks. But you can categorise this deduction also.
  - okeuro49 2y ago
    So many times I have had to deal with custom "frameworks". I've become jaded. At least with Spring, you only have to learn it once.
  - gorjusborg 2y ago
    Why not both? The trouble now it is that Spring Boot allows getting things up and running without having to know anything about what is underneath. That is great, until you have to change the way it behaves.
  - geodel 2y ago
    Agree. I have seen same thing where many people maintain a home grown crap called kitchen and think they can do better job than getting ready meal from restaurant. Developers should not be writing code. Period. Stupidity and arrogance is ruling everywhere.

okeuro49 2y ago

> I tend to say that ultra-framework kills people's expertise and in the long term hardly saves resources. You can use as much of Spring or as little as you want. Don't want Hibernate? Use JDBC template. I have noticed that people who don't use a framework, just end up inventing their own bespoke framework, which unlike Spring, is not documented and has no help available online.

nprateem 2y ago
It's a paradox as old as time itself. Otherwise intelligent devs assume they can do a better job without all the "complication" and "bloat", but then just end up with homegrown unmaintainable crap that does half of what the frameworks offer for significantly more effort. It's either stupidity or arrogance.
- optician_owl 2y ago
  > all the "complication" and "bloat", but then just end up with homegrown unmaintainable crap that does half of what the frameworks offer for significantly more effort. I don't see how you deduct the conclusion of reinventing wheels is the only solution of overcomplex and far from ideal frameworks. But you can categorise this deduction also.
- okeuro49 2y ago
  So many times I have had to deal with custom "frameworks". I've become jaded. At least with Spring, you only have to learn it once.
- gorjusborg 2y ago
  Why not both? The trouble now it is that Spring Boot allows getting things up and running without having to know anything about what is underneath. That is great, until you have to change the way it behaves.
- geodel 2y ago
  Agree. I have seen same thing where many people maintain a home grown crap called kitchen and think they can do better job than getting ready meal from restaurant. Developers should not be writing code. Period. Stupidity and arrogance is ruling everywhere.