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Unfortunately I couldn't find anyone to show up with an XRF kit - nobody in Europe seems to take lead paint seriously.

by CalRobert 2y ago

rrmm 2y ago
Was lead paint as widespread in Europe as it was in North America?
- CalRobert 2y ago
  It varied by region. The Netherlands banned it almost a century ago. Ireland in the early 90's IIRC.
logifail 2y ago
> nobody in Europe seems to take lead paint seriously Do you live in an older property or do you think there might be a significant amount of lead-containing paint in your living/working environment? (Not suggesting lead isn't a problem, but I've dealt with a bunch of much, much more toxic substances [full disclosure: PhD Chem]) FWIW, the UK banned lead paint over 30 years ago, lead water pipes 55 years ago, and leaded petrol 25 years ago. There's a paper suggesting lead pollution may be approaching natural background levels https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i40/Lead-pollution-approaches-natural-background.html https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i40/Lead-pollution-approache...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Yes, and we owned a 200 year old cottage in Ireland that definitely had leaded paint, and I needed to take paint chips and mail them to the US to get them tested because nobody in Ireland took me seriously. I had a newborn at the time, too.
  - logifail 2y ago
    > we owned a 200 year old cottage in Ireland that definitely had leaded paint [..] I had a newborn at the time, too Not a great combo. "In the home, lead pipes, red lead paint on metal work, leaded paint on windowsills, bannisters, door frames and doors can still exist. Lead paint was common before the 1970s and although lead paint has not been used after 1992, prior to this UK paint may have contained up to 50% lead by weight (500,000 mg/kg), which is potentially capable of causing lead poisoning in a small child if they eat just a single flake. Leaded paint at these concentrations may still be found in non-remediated Victorian properties, often below newer non-leaded paint." https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-poisoning-advice-for-the-public-and-healthcare-professionals/lead-information-for-the-public https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-poisoning-ad... and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-exposure-in-children-surveillance-reports-from-2021/lead-exposure-in-children-surveillance-system-leicss-annual-report-2023 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-exposure-in-... Although one shouldn't underestimate potential lead contamination in soils, too. As an undergrad I recall doing a lab in which we had to look for heavy metal contamination in the soil in a nearby public park, starting at the edge of the park right next to a busy road, and then taking samples towards the centre of the park. Unsurprisingly there was measurably higher contamination close to the road, falling away with distance from the road.
  - DANmode 2y ago
    Nobody there will be wanting to tell ye about mycotoxins produced by water-damaged building materials over 35%-50% indoor humidity, either.
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      We did a lot to address that issue, at least.
      - DANmode 2y ago
        For the reader: can only replace the building materials, or move, to address this issue.
    - 2y ago
pjc50 2y ago
Surprising, since the EU near-total ban on lead.
im3w1l 2y ago
I think this extends beyond lead. Americans love tests, and Europeans are more like the person that is scared of going to the doctor because who knows what they will find.
aucisson_masque 2y ago
In France we have obligatory 'diagnostic' of house sold, including many thing like asbestos but also lead paint. We use a 20 000€ machine with radioactive material to measure the amount of lead, so not everyone can get it but you can definitely ask a technician to do it. Cost around 300€, depends of the house size and he checks every single part of every single room that can contain lead paint. Very tedious. I know that the same laboratory we send asbestos for measurement also did lead measurement. If you got only a few place you are concerned, you could scrape it yourself and sent it to them. Otherwise it's considered that lead in paint is only dangerous when the paint is old and it fall down, so that kids could eat it or if you're repainting the window and you scrub it without mask. To my knowledge, the lead pipe are much more dangerous because there is nothing you can do. It's all city property and even if you don't drink city water, you still get poisoning from factory and restaurant using that water to make food.
- amluto 2y ago
  > We use a 20 000€ machine with radioactive material I’m reasonably confident that these machines use electrically powered X-ray generators and that no radioactivity is involved.
  - aucisson_masque 2y ago
    you are reasonably wrong then. my device has a cadmium 109 source, emitting 740 MBq when i bought it.
vladms 2y ago
Lumping up all "Europe" into one is quite misleading. For example in France when buying/selling a property a detailed lead investigation performed by a professional is obligatory. To the level of what wall has what concentration. Plus all explanation of potential risks, etc. How carefully you read and understand a report depends on multiple factors, but definitely there are many people in Europe that take lead paint seriously.

Unfortunately I couldn't find anyone to show up with an XRF kit - nobody in Europe seems to take lead paint seriously.

rrmm 2y ago

Was lead paint as widespread in Europe as it was in North America?

CalRobert 2y ago
It varied by region. The Netherlands banned it almost a century ago. Ireland in the early 90's IIRC.

logifail 2y ago

> nobody in Europe seems to take lead paint seriously Do you live in an older property or do you think there might be a significant amount of lead-containing paint in your living/working environment? (Not suggesting lead isn't a problem, but I've dealt with a bunch of much, much more toxic substances [full disclosure: PhD Chem]) FWIW, the UK banned lead paint over 30 years ago, lead water pipes 55 years ago, and leaded petrol 25 years ago. There's a paper suggesting lead pollution may be approaching natural background levels https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i40/Lead-pollution-approaches-natural-background.html https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i40/Lead-pollution-approache...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
CalRobert 2y ago
Yes, and we owned a 200 year old cottage in Ireland that definitely had leaded paint, and I needed to take paint chips and mail them to the US to get them tested because nobody in Ireland took me seriously. I had a newborn at the time, too.
- logifail 2y ago
  > we owned a 200 year old cottage in Ireland that definitely had leaded paint [..] I had a newborn at the time, too Not a great combo. "In the home, lead pipes, red lead paint on metal work, leaded paint on windowsills, bannisters, door frames and doors can still exist. Lead paint was common before the 1970s and although lead paint has not been used after 1992, prior to this UK paint may have contained up to 50% lead by weight (500,000 mg/kg), which is potentially capable of causing lead poisoning in a small child if they eat just a single flake. Leaded paint at these concentrations may still be found in non-remediated Victorian properties, often below newer non-leaded paint." https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-poisoning-advice-for-the-public-and-healthcare-professionals/lead-information-for-the-public https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-poisoning-ad... and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-exposure-in-children-surveillance-reports-from-2021/lead-exposure-in-children-surveillance-system-leicss-annual-report-2023 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-exposure-in-... Although one shouldn't underestimate potential lead contamination in soils, too. As an undergrad I recall doing a lab in which we had to look for heavy metal contamination in the soil in a nearby public park, starting at the edge of the park right next to a busy road, and then taking samples towards the centre of the park. Unsurprisingly there was measurably higher contamination close to the road, falling away with distance from the road.
- DANmode 2y ago
  Nobody there will be wanting to tell ye about mycotoxins produced by water-damaged building materials over 35%-50% indoor humidity, either.
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    We did a lot to address that issue, at least.
    - DANmode 2y ago
      For the reader: can only replace the building materials, or move, to address this issue.
  - 2y ago

pjc50 2y ago

Surprising, since the EU near-total ban on lead.

im3w1l 2y ago

I think this extends beyond lead. Americans love tests, and Europeans are more like the person that is scared of going to the doctor because who knows what they will find.

aucisson_masque 2y ago

In France we have obligatory 'diagnostic' of house sold, including many thing like asbestos but also lead paint. We use a 20 000€ machine with radioactive material to measure the amount of lead, so not everyone can get it but you can definitely ask a technician to do it. Cost around 300€, depends of the house size and he checks every single part of every single room that can contain lead paint. Very tedious. I know that the same laboratory we send asbestos for measurement also did lead measurement. If you got only a few place you are concerned, you could scrape it yourself and sent it to them. Otherwise it's considered that lead in paint is only dangerous when the paint is old and it fall down, so that kids could eat it or if you're repainting the window and you scrub it without mask. To my knowledge, the lead pipe are much more dangerous because there is nothing you can do. It's all city property and even if you don't drink city water, you still get poisoning from factory and restaurant using that water to make food.

amluto 2y ago
> We use a 20 000€ machine with radioactive material I’m reasonably confident that these machines use electrically powered X-ray generators and that no radioactivity is involved.
- aucisson_masque 2y ago
  you are reasonably wrong then. my device has a cadmium 109 source, emitting 740 MBq when i bought it.

vladms 2y ago

Lumping up all "Europe" into one is quite misleading. For example in France when buying/selling a property a detailed lead investigation performed by a professional is obligatory. To the level of what wall has what concentration. Plus all explanation of potential risks, etc. How carefully you read and understand a report depends on multiple factors, but definitely there are many people in Europe that take lead paint seriously.