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> You also must charge at a station I know this isn't usual for most people but it's fairly common for adventure vehicles to carry extra gas with them. I have

> You also must charge at a station I know this isn't usual for most people but it's fairly common for adventure vehicles to carry extra gas with them. I have a fuel bottle I'll take on my motorcycle if I know I'm going to be out in the sticks for a while, Jeeps/off roaders will carry jerry cans/rotopax, etc.

thejazzman 2y ago
unless you fill those containers at home, you've only decreased your number of trips
- Brian_K_White 2y ago
  No, you do not have to refill at a station. What a ridiculous thing to even attempt to say. The whole point of the comment was that you can refill anywhere. In the absolute middle of nowhere. Because "you can carry 100 miles of range in a pail" You can carry gas any way that you would carry water. You can walk and carry 1-3 gallons of gas and it only weighs a few pounds to get 30-100 miles of range in a modestly inefficient car that only gets 30 mpg, forget a hybrid that gets 50mpg. It takes hundreds of pounds and idk how many cubic feet of battery to give 30-100 miles of range. As for needing the infrastructure to produce the gas, well, A, you need equivalent infrastructure to create solar panels and copper wire, and B, you can brew various forms of deisel and alcohol from anything that grows with no infrastructure if you really had to. There are various low-tech ways to make electricity too, though you still need at least good wire which will be hard to make in a bathtub, but let's grant the wire just to be generous, so I think the whole "needing a station" is a wash on all points except the fact that there is no electric equivalent of how practical the fuel itself is to handle and transport. The closest might be, if you had extra solar panels, instead of walking however many miles to some other tank, you could sit and wait a day and get about 30 miles from solar in a day, assuming the vehicle is not in shade. .. even when I try to steel-man the other argument, it's still full of caveats for requirements and limitations that gas does not have. And you don't lose ANY in the transfer while pouring the gas from one tank to another. You lose a lot while using one battery to charge another, or when doing any form of transmission or conversion at all. And the tools and materials you need to accomplish the transfer are nothing. No exotic cabling to handle crazy amps without overheating, no computers to negotiate and monitor, nothing. And for all that energy packed into that gas, it's almost as safe as an equal pail of water. It isn't trying desperately to explode itself at all times only held back by undamaged films. You can throw a lit cigarrette right into a pail of gas and it just puts the cigarette out. If you spill the gas and create an area of dangerous fumes that would be easy to ignite, that danger actually dissipates in a few minutes all by itself as the gas evaporates to nothing. There is no comparison in utility. The advantages of electric are obvious and can not be denied. But there simply are also serious disadvantages that have not yet found any even remotely reasonable answer.
  - ryan_lane 2y ago
    My dude. No one in their sane mind is making their own gasoline. Like, I can get the idea that some folks want to bring extra fuel around with them for off-roading, but you're talking extreme off-the-grid use-cases and no one cares about that. Keep your gas if you're going to do that. You're in such an ultra minority that it doesn't matter if you use EVs or not. We're talking about normal use-cases here. Like, my car is in my house attached to my wall socket vs needing to take 15 minutes out of your commute to go to a gas station. Most EV owners can avoid going to a "station" completely, for their day-to-day use, and for road trips may need to go to one once or twice, ideally charging while they eat.
    - defrost 2y ago
      > No one in their sane mind is making their own gasoline. In your apparently limited experience. First time I met someone cleaning biodiesel at their home was back in 1980 and since then I've met such people at least once a year or so, particularly in the off road and farming communities. It's a neat saving for bulk fuel users to collect waste cooking oils from resturants, chip shops, etc and filter, centrifuge, tap, clean and blend into 44 gallon drums for later use. It's entirely sane to make a bit of cash taking people's waste and saving on fuel purchases by blending in.
      - ryan_lane 2y ago
        It's still the absolute minority of people, and they can continue using biodiesel for their cases. No one is going to force them to switch, and it doesn't change the fact that nearly all people who use gas need to go to a station.
        defrost 2y ago
        That doesn't make them insane though, does it? It's a minority of people that launch unicorn startups, it's a minority of people that fill 10 acres with graded rock and soil for construction sales, own second hand bobcats and excavators, make money collecting oil waste, and reduce costs by blending.
- dharmab 2y ago
  No. The point of carrying the gas is that trips that would have otherwise been impossible become possible, with only a few extra pounds of cargo.
ryan_lane 2y ago
No one is saying _you must use an EV_ if your use-case doesn't fit. That doesn't change the fact that most people aren't you. I've for example never brought around extra gas. The goal is to have most cars shifted over to EV as they fit the common uses-cases, and to eventually expand to the abnormal use-cases.

thejazzman 2y ago

unless you fill those containers at home, you've only decreased your number of trips

Brian_K_White 2y ago
No, you do not have to refill at a station. What a ridiculous thing to even attempt to say. The whole point of the comment was that you can refill anywhere. In the absolute middle of nowhere. Because "you can carry 100 miles of range in a pail" You can carry gas any way that you would carry water. You can walk and carry 1-3 gallons of gas and it only weighs a few pounds to get 30-100 miles of range in a modestly inefficient car that only gets 30 mpg, forget a hybrid that gets 50mpg. It takes hundreds of pounds and idk how many cubic feet of battery to give 30-100 miles of range. As for needing the infrastructure to produce the gas, well, A, you need equivalent infrastructure to create solar panels and copper wire, and B, you can brew various forms of deisel and alcohol from anything that grows with no infrastructure if you really had to. There are various low-tech ways to make electricity too, though you still need at least good wire which will be hard to make in a bathtub, but let's grant the wire just to be generous, so I think the whole "needing a station" is a wash on all points except the fact that there is no electric equivalent of how practical the fuel itself is to handle and transport. The closest might be, if you had extra solar panels, instead of walking however many miles to some other tank, you could sit and wait a day and get about 30 miles from solar in a day, assuming the vehicle is not in shade. .. even when I try to steel-man the other argument, it's still full of caveats for requirements and limitations that gas does not have. And you don't lose ANY in the transfer while pouring the gas from one tank to another. You lose a lot while using one battery to charge another, or when doing any form of transmission or conversion at all. And the tools and materials you need to accomplish the transfer are nothing. No exotic cabling to handle crazy amps without overheating, no computers to negotiate and monitor, nothing. And for all that energy packed into that gas, it's almost as safe as an equal pail of water. It isn't trying desperately to explode itself at all times only held back by undamaged films. You can throw a lit cigarrette right into a pail of gas and it just puts the cigarette out. If you spill the gas and create an area of dangerous fumes that would be easy to ignite, that danger actually dissipates in a few minutes all by itself as the gas evaporates to nothing. There is no comparison in utility. The advantages of electric are obvious and can not be denied. But there simply are also serious disadvantages that have not yet found any even remotely reasonable answer.
- ryan_lane 2y ago
  My dude. No one in their sane mind is making their own gasoline. Like, I can get the idea that some folks want to bring extra fuel around with them for off-roading, but you're talking extreme off-the-grid use-cases and no one cares about that. Keep your gas if you're going to do that. You're in such an ultra minority that it doesn't matter if you use EVs or not. We're talking about normal use-cases here. Like, my car is in my house attached to my wall socket vs needing to take 15 minutes out of your commute to go to a gas station. Most EV owners can avoid going to a "station" completely, for their day-to-day use, and for road trips may need to go to one once or twice, ideally charging while they eat.
  - defrost 2y ago
    > No one in their sane mind is making their own gasoline. In your apparently limited experience. First time I met someone cleaning biodiesel at their home was back in 1980 and since then I've met such people at least once a year or so, particularly in the off road and farming communities. It's a neat saving for bulk fuel users to collect waste cooking oils from resturants, chip shops, etc and filter, centrifuge, tap, clean and blend into 44 gallon drums for later use. It's entirely sane to make a bit of cash taking people's waste and saving on fuel purchases by blending in.
    - ryan_lane 2y ago
      It's still the absolute minority of people, and they can continue using biodiesel for their cases. No one is going to force them to switch, and it doesn't change the fact that nearly all people who use gas need to go to a station.
      - defrost 2y ago
        That doesn't make them insane though, does it? It's a minority of people that launch unicorn startups, it's a minority of people that fill 10 acres with graded rock and soil for construction sales, own second hand bobcats and excavators, make money collecting oil waste, and reduce costs by blending.
dharmab 2y ago
No. The point of carrying the gas is that trips that would have otherwise been impossible become possible, with only a few extra pounds of cargo.

ryan_lane 2y ago

No one is saying _you must use an EV_ if your use-case doesn't fit. That doesn't change the fact that most people aren't you. I've for example never brought around extra gas. The goal is to have most cars shifted over to EV as they fit the common uses-cases, and to eventually expand to the abnormal use-cases.