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Any chemists here able to comment on the recent lead test kits around? Eg lumetallix.com and detectlead.com. I have one and like it but don’t know how accurate

Any chemists here able to comment on the recent lead test kits around? Eg lumetallix.com and detectlead.com. I have one and like it but don’t know how accurate it is. Had some leaded Pyrex among other things

amluto 2y ago
I’m not a chemist, but: As I understand it, the biggest source of lead that gets inside people is paint, especially where windows rub against it. And sometimes lead paint has been painted over but can still become airborne when abraded. I would be surprised if these tests can detect it. Get an XRF test instead — this will quantify the amount of lead at or even under the surface. You can do this by getting a lead testing contractor to come over, and a friendly one will test as many spots as you like in a single visit. Or I suppose you could try to buy the machine, but it isn’t cheap. (Wirecutter says the main ingredient in these fluorescence tests is methylammonium bromide.)
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Unfortunately I couldn't find anyone to show up with an XRF kit - nobody in Europe seems to take lead paint seriously.
  - rrmm 2y ago
    Was lead paint as widespread in Europe as it was in North America?
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      It varied by region. The Netherlands banned it almost a century ago. Ireland in the early 90's IIRC.
  - logifail 2y ago
    > nobody in Europe seems to take lead paint seriously Do you live in an older property or do you think there might be a significant amount of lead-containing paint in your living/working environment? (Not suggesting lead isn't a problem, but I've dealt with a bunch of much, much more toxic substances [full disclosure: PhD Chem]) FWIW, the UK banned lead paint over 30 years ago, lead water pipes 55 years ago, and leaded petrol 25 years ago. There's a paper suggesting lead pollution may be approaching natural background levels https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i40/Lead-pollution-approaches-natural-background.html https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i40/Lead-pollution-approache...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      Yes, and we owned a 200 year old cottage in Ireland that definitely had leaded paint, and I needed to take paint chips and mail them to the US to get them tested because nobody in Ireland took me seriously. I had a newborn at the time, too.
      - logifail 2y ago
        > we owned a 200 year old cottage in Ireland that definitely had leaded paint [..] I had a newborn at the time, too Not a great combo. "In the home, lead pipes, red lead paint on metal work, leaded paint on windowsills, bannisters, door frames and doors can still exist. Lead paint was common before the 1970s and although lead paint has not been used after 1992, prior to this UK paint may have contained up to 50% lead by weight (500,000 mg/kg), which is potentially capable of causing lead poisoning in a small child if they eat just a single flake. Leaded paint at these concentrations may still be found in non-remediated Victorian properties, often below newer non-leaded paint." https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-poisoning-advice-for-the-public-and-healthcare-professionals/lead-information-for-the-public https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-poisoning-ad... and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-exposure-in-children-surveillance-reports-from-2021/lead-exposure-in-children-surveillance-system-leicss-annual-report-2023 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-exposure-in-... Although one shouldn't underestimate potential lead contamination in soils, too. As an undergrad I recall doing a lab in which we had to look for heavy metal contamination in the soil in a nearby public park, starting at the edge of the park right next to a busy road, and then taking samples towards the centre of the park. Unsurprisingly there was measurably higher contamination close to the road, falling away with distance from the road.
      - DANmode 2y ago
        Nobody there will be wanting to tell ye about mycotoxins produced by water-damaged building materials over 35%-50% indoor humidity, either.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    Surprising, since the EU near-total ban on lead.
  - im3w1l 2y ago
    I think this extends beyond lead. Americans love tests, and Europeans are more like the person that is scared of going to the doctor because who knows what they will find.
  - aucisson_masque 2y ago
    In France we have obligatory 'diagnostic' of house sold, including many thing like asbestos but also lead paint. We use a 20 000€ machine with radioactive material to measure the amount of lead, so not everyone can get it but you can definitely ask a technician to do it. Cost around 300€, depends of the house size and he checks every single part of every single room that can contain lead paint. Very tedious. I know that the same laboratory we send asbestos for measurement also did lead measurement. If you got only a few place you are concerned, you could scrape it yourself and sent it to them. Otherwise it's considered that lead in paint is only dangerous when the paint is old and it fall down, so that kids could eat it or if you're repainting the window and you scrub it without mask. To my knowledge, the lead pipe are much more dangerous because there is nothing you can do. It's all city property and even if you don't drink city water, you still get poisoning from factory and restaurant using that water to make food.
    - amluto 2y ago
      > We use a 20 000€ machine with radioactive material I’m reasonably confident that these machines use electrically powered X-ray generators and that no radioactivity is involved.
      - aucisson_masque 2y ago
        you are reasonably wrong then. my device has a cadmium 109 source, emitting 740 MBq when i bought it.
  - vladms 2y ago
    Lumping up all "Europe" into one is quite misleading. For example in France when buying/selling a property a detailed lead investigation performed by a professional is obligatory. To the level of what wall has what concentration. Plus all explanation of potential risks, etc. How carefully you read and understand a report depends on multiple factors, but definitely there are many people in Europe that take lead paint seriously.
tdb7893 2y ago
I'm also not a chemist but I've heard that at least some lead test kits are meant only for paint. I recently was looking for lead free solder and I ran into a lot of reviews about how the solder triggered a lead test but apparently the strips people were using also reacted with copper (which was supposed to be in the solder)
- logifail 2y ago
  > I recently was looking for lead free solder [...] I went looking for leaded solder(!) recently. Turned out it's got quite hard to buy in the EU, but I was able to purchase it online from a US supplier and have it shipped.
  - BoxOfRain 2y ago
    I needed leaded solder recently too for a vintage audio project, I'm in the UK and while it was a bit of a faff to track it down initially I was able to order some locally. Might get better shipping buying from the UK next time!
    - LM358 2y ago
      I don't know where you guys are looking - both Farnell and RS Components, which are UK based and among the suppliers I use the most at work, stock leaded solder. There are other suppliers more local to me that stock it as well. It's not like it's banned or anything, it's just not allowed to be used in (most) consumer electronics.
      - BoxOfRain 2y ago
        That's odd I remember checking Farnell because I use them myself, I guess I must have forgotten my coffee that day and missed it.
      - logifail 2y ago
        There have been reports of RS Online having refused orders from UK consumers saying that: "It is restricted to professional users and cannot be supplied to the general public (non-trade customers)" Are RS Online gold-plating the regulations? Probably. I bought from Digikey USA instead.
lgats 2y ago
i've used a similar test but found it has false positives with zinc -- and so many things have zinc
- lazide 2y ago
  A lot of Zinc plating (almost all galvanizing) has lead in it. It’s a common component of lead/zinc alloys (many Zamac alloys). Lead in general is also a common component of ‘impure’ zinc (from the mine/foundry). So chances are, your tests are correct.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Zamac alloys do not contain lead, except as a tiny amount of impurity (because we don't know how to completely remove it). Zamac is often confused for the more general "pot metal", which is a anything goes if it melts in a pot (that is on your kitchen stove!), lead often is in these, but the goal of people who use pot metal is cheap and don't worry about quality, such alloys make be as much as 50% lead because nobody cares (there is an upper limit, but defined more by it will no longer make it past the warranty). Please keep your terms correct. Zamac is a very useful thing to look for in hobby metal casting because you can buy ingots for fairly cheap that will melt in your kitchen (I would still do it outside) and have useful known properties thus ensuring good results. Pot metal is a low quality product that you could also work with in your kitchen, but you have no idea what the results will be.
scq 2y ago
It seems to be quite sensitive, down to the nanogram level. This paper has some more details: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.est.3c06058 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.est.3c06058 Some of the authors of that paper founded Lumetallix.

amluto 2y ago

I’m not a chemist, but: As I understand it, the biggest source of lead that gets inside people is paint, especially where windows rub against it. And sometimes lead paint has been painted over but can still become airborne when abraded. I would be surprised if these tests can detect it. Get an XRF test instead — this will quantify the amount of lead at or even under the surface. You can do this by getting a lead testing contractor to come over, and a friendly one will test as many spots as you like in a single visit. Or I suppose you could try to buy the machine, but it isn’t cheap. (Wirecutter says the main ingredient in these fluorescence tests is methylammonium bromide.)

CalRobert 2y ago
Unfortunately I couldn't find anyone to show up with an XRF kit - nobody in Europe seems to take lead paint seriously.
- rrmm 2y ago
  Was lead paint as widespread in Europe as it was in North America?
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    It varied by region. The Netherlands banned it almost a century ago. Ireland in the early 90's IIRC.
- logifail 2y ago
  > nobody in Europe seems to take lead paint seriously Do you live in an older property or do you think there might be a significant amount of lead-containing paint in your living/working environment? (Not suggesting lead isn't a problem, but I've dealt with a bunch of much, much more toxic substances [full disclosure: PhD Chem]) FWIW, the UK banned lead paint over 30 years ago, lead water pipes 55 years ago, and leaded petrol 25 years ago. There's a paper suggesting lead pollution may be approaching natural background levels https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i40/Lead-pollution-approaches-natural-background.html https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i40/Lead-pollution-approache...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    Yes, and we owned a 200 year old cottage in Ireland that definitely had leaded paint, and I needed to take paint chips and mail them to the US to get them tested because nobody in Ireland took me seriously. I had a newborn at the time, too.
    - logifail 2y ago
      > we owned a 200 year old cottage in Ireland that definitely had leaded paint [..] I had a newborn at the time, too Not a great combo. "In the home, lead pipes, red lead paint on metal work, leaded paint on windowsills, bannisters, door frames and doors can still exist. Lead paint was common before the 1970s and although lead paint has not been used after 1992, prior to this UK paint may have contained up to 50% lead by weight (500,000 mg/kg), which is potentially capable of causing lead poisoning in a small child if they eat just a single flake. Leaded paint at these concentrations may still be found in non-remediated Victorian properties, often below newer non-leaded paint." https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-poisoning-advice-for-the-public-and-healthcare-professionals/lead-information-for-the-public https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-poisoning-ad... and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-exposure-in-children-surveillance-reports-from-2021/lead-exposure-in-children-surveillance-system-leicss-annual-report-2023 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lead-exposure-in-... Although one shouldn't underestimate potential lead contamination in soils, too. As an undergrad I recall doing a lab in which we had to look for heavy metal contamination in the soil in a nearby public park, starting at the edge of the park right next to a busy road, and then taking samples towards the centre of the park. Unsurprisingly there was measurably higher contamination close to the road, falling away with distance from the road.
    - DANmode 2y ago
      Nobody there will be wanting to tell ye about mycotoxins produced by water-damaged building materials over 35%-50% indoor humidity, either.
- pjc50 2y ago
  Surprising, since the EU near-total ban on lead.
- im3w1l 2y ago
  I think this extends beyond lead. Americans love tests, and Europeans are more like the person that is scared of going to the doctor because who knows what they will find.
- aucisson_masque 2y ago
  In France we have obligatory 'diagnostic' of house sold, including many thing like asbestos but also lead paint. We use a 20 000€ machine with radioactive material to measure the amount of lead, so not everyone can get it but you can definitely ask a technician to do it. Cost around 300€, depends of the house size and he checks every single part of every single room that can contain lead paint. Very tedious. I know that the same laboratory we send asbestos for measurement also did lead measurement. If you got only a few place you are concerned, you could scrape it yourself and sent it to them. Otherwise it's considered that lead in paint is only dangerous when the paint is old and it fall down, so that kids could eat it or if you're repainting the window and you scrub it without mask. To my knowledge, the lead pipe are much more dangerous because there is nothing you can do. It's all city property and even if you don't drink city water, you still get poisoning from factory and restaurant using that water to make food.
  - amluto 2y ago
    > We use a 20 000€ machine with radioactive material I’m reasonably confident that these machines use electrically powered X-ray generators and that no radioactivity is involved.
    - aucisson_masque 2y ago
      you are reasonably wrong then. my device has a cadmium 109 source, emitting 740 MBq when i bought it.
- vladms 2y ago
  Lumping up all "Europe" into one is quite misleading. For example in France when buying/selling a property a detailed lead investigation performed by a professional is obligatory. To the level of what wall has what concentration. Plus all explanation of potential risks, etc. How carefully you read and understand a report depends on multiple factors, but definitely there are many people in Europe that take lead paint seriously.

tdb7893 2y ago

I'm also not a chemist but I've heard that at least some lead test kits are meant only for paint. I recently was looking for lead free solder and I ran into a lot of reviews about how the solder triggered a lead test but apparently the strips people were using also reacted with copper (which was supposed to be in the solder)

logifail 2y ago
> I recently was looking for lead free solder [...] I went looking for leaded solder(!) recently. Turned out it's got quite hard to buy in the EU, but I was able to purchase it online from a US supplier and have it shipped.
- BoxOfRain 2y ago
  I needed leaded solder recently too for a vintage audio project, I'm in the UK and while it was a bit of a faff to track it down initially I was able to order some locally. Might get better shipping buying from the UK next time!
  - LM358 2y ago
    I don't know where you guys are looking - both Farnell and RS Components, which are UK based and among the suppliers I use the most at work, stock leaded solder. There are other suppliers more local to me that stock it as well. It's not like it's banned or anything, it's just not allowed to be used in (most) consumer electronics.
    - BoxOfRain 2y ago
      That's odd I remember checking Farnell because I use them myself, I guess I must have forgotten my coffee that day and missed it.
    - logifail 2y ago
      There have been reports of RS Online having refused orders from UK consumers saying that: "It is restricted to professional users and cannot be supplied to the general public (non-trade customers)" Are RS Online gold-plating the regulations? Probably. I bought from Digikey USA instead.

lgats 2y ago

i've used a similar test but found it has false positives with zinc -- and so many things have zinc

lazide 2y ago
A lot of Zinc plating (almost all galvanizing) has lead in it. It’s a common component of lead/zinc alloys (many Zamac alloys). Lead in general is also a common component of ‘impure’ zinc (from the mine/foundry). So chances are, your tests are correct.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Zamac alloys do not contain lead, except as a tiny amount of impurity (because we don't know how to completely remove it). Zamac is often confused for the more general "pot metal", which is a anything goes if it melts in a pot (that is on your kitchen stove!), lead often is in these, but the goal of people who use pot metal is cheap and don't worry about quality, such alloys make be as much as 50% lead because nobody cares (there is an upper limit, but defined more by it will no longer make it past the warranty). Please keep your terms correct. Zamac is a very useful thing to look for in hobby metal casting because you can buy ingots for fairly cheap that will melt in your kitchen (I would still do it outside) and have useful known properties thus ensuring good results. Pot metal is a low quality product that you could also work with in your kitchen, but you have no idea what the results will be.

scq 2y ago

It seems to be quite sensitive, down to the nanogram level. This paper has some more details: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.est.3c06058 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.est.3c06058 Some of the authors of that paper founded Lumetallix.