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Hmm, I posted a job ad last week and saw this at the bottom of the submission form: "Clicking "Continue" confirms that craigslist is the exclusive licensee of

Hmm, I posted a job ad last week and saw this at the bottom of the submission form: "Clicking "Continue" confirms that craigslist is the exclusive licensee of this content, with the exclusive right to enforce copyrights against anyone copying, republishing, distributing or preparing derivative works without its consent. " I'm not sure whether your assumption or information was taken first hand from from Craigslist guys, but it doesn't look like that's the current implementation.

pg 14y ago
This is just deliberately overstated language written by lawyers, to give CL maximum legal power if they ever need it. In practice they let search engines index them, and users know and expect that.
- Avshalom 14y ago
  >and users know and expect that. [citation needed]
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- cynicalkane 14y ago
  You said that the user data is "not Craigslist's data", but the license agreement shows that it is Craigslist's data. They have an exclusive license and power to enforce it. If the license agreement isn't enough, then I guess I don't know what you mean by "not Craigslist's data".
  - jahmed 14y ago
    Craigslist can claim whatever they want but that does not make it true. When you post an apartment for rent that is factual information that an apartment at a particular location is available for a specific price. Much like the case of a movie theater offering tickets to a showing at a specific place and time. Padmapper (which I just used just before this whole situation and found an awesome place) doesnt take your 'creative' post. They merely take the factual title and existence of a listing and direct you to it.
    - cynicalkane 14y ago
      One, the presentation of factual information can be intellectual property; two, the presentation of someone else's factual information can be intellectual property. The Craigslist-hate is very strange considering much of this community was seeded by people providing web interfaces to information. I bet there are a number of YC companies that would send out the lawyers if they found their sites being illegally scraped and repackaged.
      - ericd 14y ago
        I'm not sure if you've used PadMapper, but it's showing things about the listings, not the listings themselves. To see those, you have to click through to the listing.
      - dwynings 14y ago
        I bet you most YC startups offer an API, negating the need for scraping =)
      - jahmed 14y ago
        Yes the creative presentation of factual information can be protected intellectual property. Craigslist however only collects information it is given and displays them as such. Craigslist does not add any creativity or originality to the posts. The is no "Craigslist-hate" but I do disagree on their claimed ownership of facts. I think Feist v. Rural (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=499&invol=340 http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&#3...) covered this pretty well.
- rubyrescue 14y ago
  That's really irrelevant, though, isn't it? CL could allow search engines to index but could explicitly disallow third parties (fourth parties?) from using the content, regardless of how that additional party retrieved that content.
  - Natsu 14y ago
    > That's really irrelevant, though, isn't it? To me, it sounds a lot like the MLB statements before every ballgame and I question whether they have any actual legal force. If CL had any sense, they'd try to buy PadMapper to improve their service.
learc83 14y ago
I think exclusive was added recently, but I can't be sure. Anyone else remember it? Additionally you can't copyright facts. From Feist v. Rural a collection of facts can only be copyrighted insomuch as they are creatively selected and arranged. Feist specifically states it doesn't matter how hard it was for them to collect the facts. The selection isn't creative, because there is not selection, And the arrangement is only by geographic location and time--the only viable way to post such material, so not original or creative. In addition Padmapper doesn't take the writing directly they just take out the relavent facts. Again facts aren't copyrightable if you aren't copying a creative selection or arraignment. I see this as no different than a T.V. guide publishing short blurbs about the episodes and order of a TV show.
- pgeorgi 14y ago
  http://web.archive.org/web/20110725202211/http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use http://web.archive.org/web/20110725202211/http://www.craigsl... contains the bit about copyright enforcements rights in section 14. That dates back to at least 2009. In February they reorganized it a bit (so now it's section 3a)
graue 14y ago
Wow, with the "exclusive"s, that is extremely anticompetitive language; they are forbidding you from posting the same job ad (your own ad that you wrote!) on both Craigslist and a competing site. I hope it's not enforceable, but I'm still stunned they would try that. I'm curious, did you actually follow that rule and refrain from posting your ad anywhere else?
- wildmXranat 14y ago
  Yes, but to be honest Craigslist is getting the exclusive right to the specific posting. It doesn't stop me from making a new job ad somewhere else. I believe the crux of the issue is at the mark of creating the ad versus copying the CL ad and hosting the content somewhere else. By creating the CL ad, I honor the fact that I don't go to site X and choose to 'import' my ad from CL. I just create a new one somewhere else, which delineates both of them as separate ads. Just my 2 cents

pg 14y ago

This is just deliberately overstated language written by lawyers, to give CL maximum legal power if they ever need it. In practice they let search engines index them, and users know and expect that.

Avshalom 14y ago
>and users know and expect that. [citation needed]
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
cynicalkane 14y ago
You said that the user data is "not Craigslist's data", but the license agreement shows that it is Craigslist's data. They have an exclusive license and power to enforce it. If the license agreement isn't enough, then I guess I don't know what you mean by "not Craigslist's data".
- jahmed 14y ago
  Craigslist can claim whatever they want but that does not make it true. When you post an apartment for rent that is factual information that an apartment at a particular location is available for a specific price. Much like the case of a movie theater offering tickets to a showing at a specific place and time. Padmapper (which I just used just before this whole situation and found an awesome place) doesnt take your 'creative' post. They merely take the factual title and existence of a listing and direct you to it.
  - cynicalkane 14y ago
    One, the presentation of factual information can be intellectual property; two, the presentation of someone else's factual information can be intellectual property. The Craigslist-hate is very strange considering much of this community was seeded by people providing web interfaces to information. I bet there are a number of YC companies that would send out the lawyers if they found their sites being illegally scraped and repackaged.
    - ericd 14y ago
      I'm not sure if you've used PadMapper, but it's showing things about the listings, not the listings themselves. To see those, you have to click through to the listing.
    - dwynings 14y ago
      I bet you most YC startups offer an API, negating the need for scraping =)
    - jahmed 14y ago
      Yes the creative presentation of factual information can be protected intellectual property. Craigslist however only collects information it is given and displays them as such. Craigslist does not add any creativity or originality to the posts. The is no "Craigslist-hate" but I do disagree on their claimed ownership of facts. I think Feist v. Rural (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=499&invol=340 http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&#3...) covered this pretty well.
rubyrescue 14y ago
That's really irrelevant, though, isn't it? CL could allow search engines to index but could explicitly disallow third parties (fourth parties?) from using the content, regardless of how that additional party retrieved that content.
- Natsu 14y ago
  > That's really irrelevant, though, isn't it? To me, it sounds a lot like the MLB statements before every ballgame and I question whether they have any actual legal force. If CL had any sense, they'd try to buy PadMapper to improve their service.

learc83 14y ago

I think exclusive was added recently, but I can't be sure. Anyone else remember it? Additionally you can't copyright facts. From Feist v. Rural a collection of facts can only be copyrighted insomuch as they are creatively selected and arranged. Feist specifically states it doesn't matter how hard it was for them to collect the facts. The selection isn't creative, because there is not selection, And the arrangement is only by geographic location and time--the only viable way to post such material, so not original or creative. In addition Padmapper doesn't take the writing directly they just take out the relavent facts. Again facts aren't copyrightable if you aren't copying a creative selection or arraignment. I see this as no different than a T.V. guide publishing short blurbs about the episodes and order of a TV show.

pgeorgi 14y ago
http://web.archive.org/web/20110725202211/http://www.craigslist.org/about/terms.of.use http://web.archive.org/web/20110725202211/http://www.craigsl... contains the bit about copyright enforcements rights in section 14. That dates back to at least 2009. In February they reorganized it a bit (so now it's section 3a)

graue 14y ago

Wow, with the "exclusive"s, that is extremely anticompetitive language; they are forbidding you from posting the same job ad (your own ad that you wrote!) on both Craigslist and a competing site. I hope it's not enforceable, but I'm still stunned they would try that. I'm curious, did you actually follow that rule and refrain from posting your ad anywhere else?

wildmXranat 14y ago
Yes, but to be honest Craigslist is getting the exclusive right to the specific posting. It doesn't stop me from making a new job ad somewhere else. I believe the crux of the issue is at the mark of creating the ad versus copying the CL ad and hosting the content somewhere else. By creating the CL ad, I honor the fact that I don't go to site X and choose to 'import' my ad from CL. I just create a new one somewhere else, which delineates both of them as separate ads. Just my 2 cents