5 ms·

Most non-smart 4K screens are more expensive than 4k-smart tv screens though. Really weird, because there's less stuff in it. I just want a nice 50" 4k screen w

Most non-smart 4K screens are more expensive than 4k-smart tv screens though. Really weird, because there's less stuff in it. I just want a nice 50" 4k screen with hdmi and display ports. I don't use all the other junk anyway, since i watch tv via a computer and sounds goes to a surround set.

progbits 2y ago
Is there an equivalent of DDWRT/OpenWRT but for TVs? Most often those are some embedded linux board running some Android fork, shouldn't there be some TV models on the market that are a good hardware/price deal with firmware that can be replaced? Even something that just permanently shows HDMI input with no popup overlays would be good, but AOSP + VLC/Jellyfin would be even nicer.
- RandomDistort 2y ago
  Isn't a TV that permanently shows HDMI input a big monitor? Weirdly they always seem to be more expensive than a TV though.
  - b3lvedere 2y ago
    Well yes, but i guess either big monitors use different panels or there's some shady business going on.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      Inclusive or.
  - progbits 2y ago
    Yeah exactly, as also others point out in the thread, if you want "TV-sized monitor" you will pay more than for a TV, and probably get worse panel, lower brightness, etc. Hence it would be useful to buy "smart" TV and turn it into a monitor instead.
  - protocolture 2y ago
    Bare in mind I went down this hole years ago, so these could be solved problems, but in my experience Monitors speak a set of more useful modes (Resolution and refresh rate combos) and tv's often need to be trammed in a bit, the default screen position not being properly centered in all cases.
  - adornKey 2y ago
    One difference between Monitors and TV used to be that Monitors used RGB Subpixel-Layout and TVs used BGR. (i.e. TV panels are upside down) Configuring subpixel-layout per monitor is something that most OS won't allow. So if you use several monitors, you usually have to mount the BGR-ones upside down. (Otherwise fonts will be blurry...) For some time now there are really cheap 4K Monitors with BGR-layout available. If you mount those upside down you're fine... (I use LG 4K Monitors mounted upside down in combination with other screens)
    - kbolino 2y ago
      Subpixel hinting isn't that useful at high DPIs though. Apple has ditched it entirely in macOS, regardless of monitor DPI, and gone back to standard anti-aliasing.
- b3lvedere 2y ago
  Would be fun if some could hack those os'es indeed. It could make a nice CrowdSupply project, except for the cheap distribution of the huge packages. Sounds not that hard though: Just get some nice 50" 4k smart tv's and remove all the junk. Cool features like DP daisy chain or something and one could have a nice project. But i'm guessing there is (too) much money to be made in user info and ads. :(
  - simondotau 2y ago
    Top tip: some smart TVs will turn into perfectly serviceable dumb TVs if you reject their on-screen software license agreement/privacy disclaimer.
    - K0balt 2y ago
      Yup. This. Just tell it no.
- lotharcable2 2y ago
  > Is there an equivalent of DDWRT/OpenWRT but for TVs? Get a used mini-pc, install Linux on it, and don't allow the TV to connect to any networks. This is a 50-75 dollar solution. Good if you are on a budget and are not interested in any wiz-bang features like HDR. There are a few TV-dedicated Linux systems out there, like libreElEC. Or get a more powerful system with a AMD GPU and install Bazzite on it. That way you get something like "SteamOS for your TV". Pairs nicely with controllers like 8BitDo. It would be nice to have TVs as open as PCs, but the manufacturers and media companies are ran by dirtbags and would rather have victims then customers.
  - close04 2y ago
    > Get a used mini-pc, install Linux on it As someone who tried that route I'd strongly recommend against it for anyone who isn't core HN audience or just loves tinkering. You're much better off with an Apple TV or an Nvidia Shield unless you really want the "beefy gaming media center". I walked the mini-PC/RPi road and they came up short every time even for me, let alone the rest of the family. Even when I put in place the perfectly optimized initial setup I was still left with a bad compromise of performance, power consumption, noise, boot time, ergonomics, and the constant trickle of things breaking down or needing tweaking because of some update. When trying to watch a movie with the family the last thing I want is to troubleshoot random issues.
    - b3lvedere 2y ago
      I've had a MSI Trident functioning as a gaming/HTPC computer for years and the family loves it. They know how to browse the various streaming services and use Steam and Kodi.
      - close04 2y ago
        > a MSI Trident This is diverging quite a bit from "a smart TV replacement". Especially if Steam is a requirement. The gaming PC you have there is probably exactly the combination you want. But for most others it's the compromise to avoid I mentioned above. It delivers the console and TV/media center experience but with the full PC power consumption, noise, boot times, maintenance effort, and inconvenient controls. The cheapest Trident I can find on eBay costs more (by 2-5x) than an Xbox and an Apple TV together. And these 2 deliver their respective experiences with far fewer compromises. > They know how to browse the various streaming services Knowing how to use it is just the bare minimum requirement. With an Apple TV for example you can do the same with almost instant startup time, 0 noise, 0 maintenance, ~1-2W streaming, and a small remote control. And probably has less ads than the average Windows computer :). I found the "right tool for the job" more appropriate for my use case but that might not work for everyone or all the time.
- kjs3 2y ago
  Because just like virtually everything in the embedded SoC ecosystem outside of the RPi competitor SBC crowd, the TV embedded board likely has a chip with little or no doc (with or without NDA), and unlike a Pi-ish SCB there's probably not even an unsupported, outdated kernel linked with a ton of opaque proprietary blobs hidden on an obscure Chinese language web site to try out. Maybe there are smart TVs out there with a SoC that's been reverse engineered enough to do something with. If there is, that should be shouted from the rafters. But I kinda doubt it.
Jeremy1026 2y ago
> Really weird, because there's less stuff in it. It's also not subsidized by selling your user data.
- b3lvedere 2y ago
  Is this really true? The margin must be huge. I've seen 4K smart tv's for half the price of 4k monitors.
  - emaro 2y ago
    TVs usually have lower requirements regarding frame rate and latency compared to computer monitors. That's probably also a factor.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    Probably more to do with the economies of scale. More TVs are sold than PC monitors so therefore cheaper.
  - alabastervlog 2y ago
    I've had a little insight into this world. To make the BOM costs work at the retail prices they charge for things like common set-top streaming boxes (e.g. Roku) and, now, TVs themselves since they incorporate the same stuff, they have to be selling data. Otherwise they're selling at a loss, once you factor in middleman margins and such. You can try to compete by charging a reasonable amount for your hardware and software, but you'll be competing against economy of scale and wrestling for shelf-space with products that are (don't forget retail percentage mark-up) at least 30% cheaper than yours, which means your units don't move, which means you don't get (or keep) shelf space, and hello death spiral. Also if you somehow manage to make it despite that, as soon as an MBA gets in charge you'll just switch to selling data, too.
    - lukevp 2y ago
      Or you buy an Apple TV, that’s priced appropriately with its capabilities and doesn’t thieve everything from your network and your house.
baltimore 2y ago
> Really weird No, not weird. The extra stuff is there to show you ads and/or track your behavior, which generates a stream of revenue for the TV maker. W/o the extra stuff, the only revenue comes from the one-time purchase.

progbits 2y ago

Is there an equivalent of DDWRT/OpenWRT but for TVs? Most often those are some embedded linux board running some Android fork, shouldn't there be some TV models on the market that are a good hardware/price deal with firmware that can be replaced? Even something that just permanently shows HDMI input with no popup overlays would be good, but AOSP + VLC/Jellyfin would be even nicer.

RandomDistort 2y ago
Isn't a TV that permanently shows HDMI input a big monitor? Weirdly they always seem to be more expensive than a TV though.
- b3lvedere 2y ago
  Well yes, but i guess either big monitors use different panels or there's some shady business going on.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Inclusive or.
- progbits 2y ago
  Yeah exactly, as also others point out in the thread, if you want "TV-sized monitor" you will pay more than for a TV, and probably get worse panel, lower brightness, etc. Hence it would be useful to buy "smart" TV and turn it into a monitor instead.
- protocolture 2y ago
  Bare in mind I went down this hole years ago, so these could be solved problems, but in my experience Monitors speak a set of more useful modes (Resolution and refresh rate combos) and tv's often need to be trammed in a bit, the default screen position not being properly centered in all cases.
- adornKey 2y ago
  One difference between Monitors and TV used to be that Monitors used RGB Subpixel-Layout and TVs used BGR. (i.e. TV panels are upside down) Configuring subpixel-layout per monitor is something that most OS won't allow. So if you use several monitors, you usually have to mount the BGR-ones upside down. (Otherwise fonts will be blurry...) For some time now there are really cheap 4K Monitors with BGR-layout available. If you mount those upside down you're fine... (I use LG 4K Monitors mounted upside down in combination with other screens)
  - kbolino 2y ago
    Subpixel hinting isn't that useful at high DPIs though. Apple has ditched it entirely in macOS, regardless of monitor DPI, and gone back to standard anti-aliasing.
b3lvedere 2y ago
Would be fun if some could hack those os'es indeed. It could make a nice CrowdSupply project, except for the cheap distribution of the huge packages. Sounds not that hard though: Just get some nice 50" 4k smart tv's and remove all the junk. Cool features like DP daisy chain or something and one could have a nice project. But i'm guessing there is (too) much money to be made in user info and ads. :(
- simondotau 2y ago
  Top tip: some smart TVs will turn into perfectly serviceable dumb TVs if you reject their on-screen software license agreement/privacy disclaimer.
  - K0balt 2y ago
    Yup. This. Just tell it no.
lotharcable2 2y ago
> Is there an equivalent of DDWRT/OpenWRT but for TVs? Get a used mini-pc, install Linux on it, and don't allow the TV to connect to any networks. This is a 50-75 dollar solution. Good if you are on a budget and are not interested in any wiz-bang features like HDR. There are a few TV-dedicated Linux systems out there, like libreElEC. Or get a more powerful system with a AMD GPU and install Bazzite on it. That way you get something like "SteamOS for your TV". Pairs nicely with controllers like 8BitDo. It would be nice to have TVs as open as PCs, but the manufacturers and media companies are ran by dirtbags and would rather have victims then customers.
- close04 2y ago
  > Get a used mini-pc, install Linux on it As someone who tried that route I'd strongly recommend against it for anyone who isn't core HN audience or just loves tinkering. You're much better off with an Apple TV or an Nvidia Shield unless you really want the "beefy gaming media center". I walked the mini-PC/RPi road and they came up short every time even for me, let alone the rest of the family. Even when I put in place the perfectly optimized initial setup I was still left with a bad compromise of performance, power consumption, noise, boot time, ergonomics, and the constant trickle of things breaking down or needing tweaking because of some update. When trying to watch a movie with the family the last thing I want is to troubleshoot random issues.
  - b3lvedere 2y ago
    I've had a MSI Trident functioning as a gaming/HTPC computer for years and the family loves it. They know how to browse the various streaming services and use Steam and Kodi.
    - close04 2y ago
      > a MSI Trident This is diverging quite a bit from "a smart TV replacement". Especially if Steam is a requirement. The gaming PC you have there is probably exactly the combination you want. But for most others it's the compromise to avoid I mentioned above. It delivers the console and TV/media center experience but with the full PC power consumption, noise, boot times, maintenance effort, and inconvenient controls. The cheapest Trident I can find on eBay costs more (by 2-5x) than an Xbox and an Apple TV together. And these 2 deliver their respective experiences with far fewer compromises. > They know how to browse the various streaming services Knowing how to use it is just the bare minimum requirement. With an Apple TV for example you can do the same with almost instant startup time, 0 noise, 0 maintenance, ~1-2W streaming, and a small remote control. And probably has less ads than the average Windows computer :). I found the "right tool for the job" more appropriate for my use case but that might not work for everyone or all the time.
kjs3 2y ago
Because just like virtually everything in the embedded SoC ecosystem outside of the RPi competitor SBC crowd, the TV embedded board likely has a chip with little or no doc (with or without NDA), and unlike a Pi-ish SCB there's probably not even an unsupported, outdated kernel linked with a ton of opaque proprietary blobs hidden on an obscure Chinese language web site to try out. Maybe there are smart TVs out there with a SoC that's been reverse engineered enough to do something with. If there is, that should be shouted from the rafters. But I kinda doubt it.

Jeremy1026 2y ago

> Really weird, because there's less stuff in it. It's also not subsidized by selling your user data.

b3lvedere 2y ago
Is this really true? The margin must be huge. I've seen 4K smart tv's for half the price of 4k monitors.
- emaro 2y ago
  TVs usually have lower requirements regarding frame rate and latency compared to computer monitors. That's probably also a factor.
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  Probably more to do with the economies of scale. More TVs are sold than PC monitors so therefore cheaper.
- alabastervlog 2y ago
  I've had a little insight into this world. To make the BOM costs work at the retail prices they charge for things like common set-top streaming boxes (e.g. Roku) and, now, TVs themselves since they incorporate the same stuff, they have to be selling data. Otherwise they're selling at a loss, once you factor in middleman margins and such. You can try to compete by charging a reasonable amount for your hardware and software, but you'll be competing against economy of scale and wrestling for shelf-space with products that are (don't forget retail percentage mark-up) at least 30% cheaper than yours, which means your units don't move, which means you don't get (or keep) shelf space, and hello death spiral. Also if you somehow manage to make it despite that, as soon as an MBA gets in charge you'll just switch to selling data, too.
  - lukevp 2y ago
    Or you buy an Apple TV, that’s priced appropriately with its capabilities and doesn’t thieve everything from your network and your house.

baltimore 2y ago

> Really weird No, not weird. The extra stuff is there to show you ads and/or track your behavior, which generates a stream of revenue for the TV maker. W/o the extra stuff, the only revenue comes from the one-time purchase.