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The parasites are trying to raise the national debt by 4 trillion USD, to pass on as tax cuts to only the richest people in the country. DOGE is playing whack-

The parasites are trying to raise the national debt by 4 trillion USD, to pass on as tax cuts to only the richest people in the country. DOGE is playing whack-a-mole against figures that are 5 orders of magnitude smaller, while ignoring the waste that pads their own pockets.

monero-xmr 2y ago
The ideal world is zero tax. Failing that the minimal possible tax. Paying taxes is not in itself virtuous, nor is spending tax money a good thing. We cut spending, then we cut taxes
- btilly 2y ago
  Let's not cut taxes until after the deficit is zeroed out. Preferably until after the debt is going down, so that the next generation doesn't have to pay interest on our poor decisions.
- MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
  How do we fund road repairs and constructions with zero tax? Medical care for the poor who can't afford medical care or insurance? Public education in general?
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    And critically, are these things more cheaply centrally provided by a government? Not providing a medical safety net or social security net seems like it's saving money... until one has to account for the downstream costs those decisions have.
  - monero-xmr 2y ago
    If we decide to do these things with tax dollars, then as a society our goal should be the best outcome for the lowest cost. Many seem to have forgotten this
    - MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
      How could they even be done at all without tax dollars? That was the question.
    - margalabargala 2y ago
      Sure, but "best outcome for the lowest cost" isn't a specific point, that describes the entire Pareto front. There's no one optimal money/quality point.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    Road repairs would be done by their owners, who will sell road access to anyone wealthy enough to deserve to be able to use a road. /s
  - jokethrowaway 2y ago
    > How do we fund road repairs and constructions with zero tax? https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/this-is-who-will-build-the-roads/ https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/this-is-who-will-b... > Medical care for the poor who can't afford medical care or insurance? Private charities > Public education in general? Homeschooling / Private schools / Private charities
    - margalabargala 2y ago
      > > How do we fund road repairs and constructions with zero tax? > https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/this-is-who-will-b https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/this-is-who-will-b... To anyone who didn't click the link, the answer is "private companies will build roads. And they won't charge tolls! They will pay for the roads by building roads in front of businesses, and then extorting the business for money or else they wall off business access from the road". I guess if the business doesn't like that they can just build their own road on top of the first one, wall off the sides, and charge the first road owner if they want to have a road near their business. Whether this scenario is better for literally anybody compared to what currently exists, is an exercise left to the reader.
- linkregister 2y ago
  All civilizations have funded public works with taxes, whether through income taxes, taxes on production (crop yields, mineral extraction), customs (tariffs), or by labor obligations (corvée). Even libertarian enclaves end up recreating taxes by another name (use fees, tolls). Voters should (and do) prioritize public spending versus taxation. Sometimes they are inefficient (Greece, Argentina pre-2025), but many states get it right (Estonia, Sweden).
  - jokethrowaway 2y ago
    Use fees and tools are voluntarily paid if you want to access a service. Not extracted from you under the threat of violence and incarceration.
    - 1659447091 2y ago
      > Not extracted from you under the threat of violence and incarceration. No one is forcing anyone to pay taxes unless they wish to continue to be a part of the society collecting the taxes. If you don't like that deal, leave and find somewhere better; you may be interested in Seasteading [0] If you are referring to being a US citizen and paying US taxes, you are free to renounce your citizenship, hand in your passport if you have one and never to have to deal with this "threat of violence and incarceration" from a state you seem to feel threatened by. Why stay if participating in it poses such a hazard to your health? One great thing about the freedoms in the US, is the freedom for you to leave. Notice how we don't have passport control on exits? No one in the US is forcing you to be here. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading
    - maxerickson 2y ago
      Now do property.
- bentcorner 2y ago
  > The ideal world is zero tax This is true but useless. It is like saying the ideal sorting algorithm is one that does nothing because your data is already sorted.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  Taxation is a public good.
- 1659447091 2y ago
  > The ideal world is zero tax. Failing that the minimal possible tax. And who decides what that minimal possible tax is for in a society of 340+ million people? We would probably have to consolidate the amount of decision makers by creating blocs of the population who choose them to be their representative present when all of the representatives come together to decide where to spend the peoples minimal possible tax dollars for the best outcome of the people they represent; because there are so many people and their needs to account for they will not all get exactly what they want and will probably have to compromise like adults.

monero-xmr 2y ago

The ideal world is zero tax. Failing that the minimal possible tax. Paying taxes is not in itself virtuous, nor is spending tax money a good thing. We cut spending, then we cut taxes

btilly 2y ago
Let's not cut taxes until after the deficit is zeroed out. Preferably until after the debt is going down, so that the next generation doesn't have to pay interest on our poor decisions.
MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
How do we fund road repairs and constructions with zero tax? Medical care for the poor who can't afford medical care or insurance? Public education in general?
- ethbr1 2y ago
  And critically, are these things more cheaply centrally provided by a government? Not providing a medical safety net or social security net seems like it's saving money... until one has to account for the downstream costs those decisions have.
- monero-xmr 2y ago
  If we decide to do these things with tax dollars, then as a society our goal should be the best outcome for the lowest cost. Many seem to have forgotten this
  - MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
    How could they even be done at all without tax dollars? That was the question.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    Sure, but "best outcome for the lowest cost" isn't a specific point, that describes the entire Pareto front. There's no one optimal money/quality point.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  Road repairs would be done by their owners, who will sell road access to anyone wealthy enough to deserve to be able to use a road. /s
- jokethrowaway 2y ago
  > How do we fund road repairs and constructions with zero tax? https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/this-is-who-will-build-the-roads/ https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/this-is-who-will-b... > Medical care for the poor who can't afford medical care or insurance? Private charities > Public education in general? Homeschooling / Private schools / Private charities
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    > > How do we fund road repairs and constructions with zero tax? > https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/this-is-who-will-b https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/this-is-who-will-b... To anyone who didn't click the link, the answer is "private companies will build roads. And they won't charge tolls! They will pay for the roads by building roads in front of businesses, and then extorting the business for money or else they wall off business access from the road". I guess if the business doesn't like that they can just build their own road on top of the first one, wall off the sides, and charge the first road owner if they want to have a road near their business. Whether this scenario is better for literally anybody compared to what currently exists, is an exercise left to the reader.
linkregister 2y ago
All civilizations have funded public works with taxes, whether through income taxes, taxes on production (crop yields, mineral extraction), customs (tariffs), or by labor obligations (corvée). Even libertarian enclaves end up recreating taxes by another name (use fees, tolls). Voters should (and do) prioritize public spending versus taxation. Sometimes they are inefficient (Greece, Argentina pre-2025), but many states get it right (Estonia, Sweden).
- jokethrowaway 2y ago
  Use fees and tools are voluntarily paid if you want to access a service. Not extracted from you under the threat of violence and incarceration.
  - 1659447091 2y ago
    > Not extracted from you under the threat of violence and incarceration. No one is forcing anyone to pay taxes unless they wish to continue to be a part of the society collecting the taxes. If you don't like that deal, leave and find somewhere better; you may be interested in Seasteading [0] If you are referring to being a US citizen and paying US taxes, you are free to renounce your citizenship, hand in your passport if you have one and never to have to deal with this "threat of violence and incarceration" from a state you seem to feel threatened by. Why stay if participating in it poses such a hazard to your health? One great thing about the freedoms in the US, is the freedom for you to leave. Notice how we don't have passport control on exits? No one in the US is forcing you to be here. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    Now do property.
bentcorner 2y ago
> The ideal world is zero tax This is true but useless. It is like saying the ideal sorting algorithm is one that does nothing because your data is already sorted.
Spooky23 2y ago
Taxation is a public good.
1659447091 2y ago
> The ideal world is zero tax. Failing that the minimal possible tax. And who decides what that minimal possible tax is for in a society of 340+ million people? We would probably have to consolidate the amount of decision makers by creating blocs of the population who choose them to be their representative present when all of the representatives come together to decide where to spend the peoples minimal possible tax dollars for the best outcome of the people they represent; because there are so many people and their needs to account for they will not all get exactly what they want and will probably have to compromise like adults.