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> They also need higher profit margins to make back the installation and maintenance cost depending on utilization rates they expect, otherwise installing these

> They also need higher profit margins to make back the installation and maintenance cost depending on utilization rates they expect, otherwise installing these chargers doesn't make a lot of sense for businesses. While I respect the right of the business to make its own decisions about what the payback time ought to be, I'd also guess that other than replacing the very cheap jack/socket and the payment tablet, these devices will last decades. The only reason they need high profit margins is a desire for a short payback time, much, much shorter than the likely life of the device.

evandijk70 2y ago
Normally a long payback time is fine, but I would expect that in ~5 years, faster charging will be prevalent and the current chargers will already be obsolete, or at least less popular.
fragmede 2y ago
Given the fact that the other plug is basically the standard at this point and the fact that Rivan's doing the "Rivan Adventure Network" for Rivan vehicles, what's the usage? If they're only getting used 10% of the time, some back of the envelope math says charging $0.61 per kWh is the five year to payback timeline. What's an acceptable timeline to RoI for you that a business owner is allowed to have?
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  From my POV, if a business owner buys a piece of equipment that can entirely reasonably be expected to last 20 years, the timeline for ROI is on the order of 20 years. Maybe 10, maybe 15. But I'm not insisting that this a hard and fast rule; rather, I'm suggesting that "a 5 year ROI" is also not a hard and fast rule.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Is there anything resembling a guarantee Rivan will be around in twenty years? Not just a "yeah probably", but something solid that would make you feel good about placing a $100k+ bet on them being around?
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Is there anything resembling a guarantee Ford will be around in 20 years? What about Nissan? Stellantis?
      - swores 2y ago
        That's completely missing the point they're making, they weren't calling out Rivian as different to competitors it was just an example brand for the discussion of what timeline is reasonable to plan over.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
      and (some) people wonder why (other) people think that charging infrastructure should be either (a) standardized to be manufacturer neutral (b) publically owned or (c) both.

evandijk70 2y ago

Normally a long payback time is fine, but I would expect that in ~5 years, faster charging will be prevalent and the current chargers will already be obsolete, or at least less popular.

fragmede 2y ago

Given the fact that the other plug is basically the standard at this point and the fact that Rivan's doing the "Rivan Adventure Network" for Rivan vehicles, what's the usage? If they're only getting used 10% of the time, some back of the envelope math says charging $0.61 per kWh is the five year to payback timeline. What's an acceptable timeline to RoI for you that a business owner is allowed to have?

PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
From my POV, if a business owner buys a piece of equipment that can entirely reasonably be expected to last 20 years, the timeline for ROI is on the order of 20 years. Maybe 10, maybe 15. But I'm not insisting that this a hard and fast rule; rather, I'm suggesting that "a 5 year ROI" is also not a hard and fast rule.
- fragmede 2y ago
  Is there anything resembling a guarantee Rivan will be around in twenty years? Not just a "yeah probably", but something solid that would make you feel good about placing a $100k+ bet on them being around?
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Is there anything resembling a guarantee Ford will be around in 20 years? What about Nissan? Stellantis?
    - swores 2y ago
      That's completely missing the point they're making, they weren't calling out Rivian as different to competitors it was just an example brand for the discussion of what timeline is reasonable to plan over.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    and (some) people wonder why (other) people think that charging infrastructure should be either (a) standardized to be manufacturer neutral (b) publically owned or (c) both.