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If I ran a spy agency or specialised in blackmail the first thing I'd do would be to run a VPN service. We have no way of auditing their trustworthiness.

• andix 2y ago
  If VPN providers would do that, it would soon be public knowledge. For some ISPs the abuse of user data is a known fact. So VPN is just the safer bet. But don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming this is impossible, it's just less likely.
  • frankharv 2y ago
    CryptoAG was owned by spooks for decades. What makes you think VPN is different. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-security/cia-crypto-encryption-machines-espionage/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-...
    • andix 2y ago
      It might be true. But I know that the shady cop in my neighborhood could easily put in a request to my ISP to get some data about me. But he could never get the same data from the NSA. I'm not a terrorist, so I don't feel threatened by the NSA. The thing I need to protect myself against is corrupt law enforcement.
      • fragmede 2y ago
        So you're saying you have nothing to hide? Gotcha.
        • andix 2y ago
          Please tell me how to do it right.
  • thephyber 2y ago
    How long did Israel’s supply chain attack on Hezbollah’s pager source stay clandestine? How long did the USA keep it hidden that they owned the Swiss company that manufactured encryption devices for other countries? They are extremely adept at finding ways to use the secret knowledge without blowing their source. A good example of this is the scene in _The Imitation Game_ after they break the Enigma code for the first time, but Alan Turing explains that they can’t notify the allied ship convoy without leaking that fact.
    • andix 2y ago
      As long as you are not a terrorist, all those surveillance programs will never be used against you. It would put those programs to risk, by exposing them. If you need to protect yourself against the most sophisticated surveillance programs, a lot of opsec will be required. VPNs can protect you against some creep in a public WiFi spying on your DNS request. It can protect against some low-tech state run mass surveillance.
      • waveBidder 2y ago
        Good thing the US doesn't have an administration that will happily criminalize any opposition
        • andix 2y ago
          If this is your threat model, then VPNs are definitively not enough. Still a European VPN provider might be better than nothing.
      • JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
        > As long as you are not a terrorist, all those surveillance programs will never be used against you Can you say "as long as you have nothing to hide"? We’ve known since WW2 and maybe further that governments have used surveillance against innocents and people they didn’t like.
        • 2y ago
• chefandy 2y ago
  Anybody expecting to get enough privacy to commit crimes using a VPN is definitely naive. I think most people doing important privacy stuff like being whistle blowers in authoritarian regimes knows that well enough. As part of a multi-pronged strategy to reduce the surface area exposed to creepy data brokers, though? Works fine for me.
  • andix 2y ago
    Exactly the point. It's a security measure for regular people, who don't commit crimes and aren't a high value target for government agencies. With a VPN your employee can't track what websites you're visiting over the WiFi in the break room (looking for a new job, visiting the union website for legal advice). The hotel can't track what you're doing on their WiFi. While traveling to not really democratic countries the government can't spy on you (in many muslim countries the typical US/European browsing behavior is probably illegal).
    • chefandy 2y ago
      Right. A lot of folks sacrifice the good because it’s not unattainably perfect in tech, especially with security. I think the pressure to improve, on a whole, is a positive thing, but it often makes terrible practical advice.
    • ghostpepper 2y ago
      > regular people, who don't commit crimes and aren't a high value target for government agencies. > While traveling to not really democratic countries the government can't spy on you (in many muslim countries the typical US/European browsing behavior is probably illegal). Aren’t these two threat models already completely different? IMHO if an authoritarian government considers what you’re doing to be a crime, you should not be doing it over a VPN you saw advertised on a billboard
      • chefandy 2y ago
        I think they’re mostly referring to bypassing countrywide web filters.