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It is clear from the article that the joke calls into question whether these folks downtown truly are "goth" (or insert counter/sub culture here) or are just in

by dfxm12 2y ago

It is clear from the article that the joke calls into question whether these folks downtown truly are "goth" (or insert counter/sub culture here) or are just into the fashion/aesthetic, which, depending on the time and place, may have been particularly trendy. The next season, maybe these folks are wearing bell bottoms. While if you see a goth presenting despite the difficulty, like you say in a small town or countryside, maybe you can assume they're a true believer.

dkarl 2y ago
In a small town pre-internet (I can't speak to now), goth could be a way of outwardly embracing an invisible social fact. When people felt rejected and excluded, some conformed and abased themselves to get back into the social good graces of the in-crowd, and others burned their bridges to show their defiance. Goth was one flavor of the latter. God, small towns are shitty. Anyone who romanticizes small towns or small involuntary communities of any kind must see themselves as permanently part of the dominant group. EDIT: To bring this back to the article, I guess it's nice if the country is now a place where being goth can be about "a quiet confidence, which manifests externally as shyness" instead of being about "if I accepted the community's evaluation of me, I would have to erase myself, and I still have enough of a survival instinct to fight against that." Also, I disagree with this part: > In the city the vectors come from many directions, but cancel out and you remain more or less a circle. In the country you get repeated perturbation by a few vectors that deforms you into a spiky, interesting shape.” Being interesting can be about responding to different vectors of scrutiny differently. You can respond to them all and still be interesting if you respond in a mild way to some and an extreme way to others, and you're willing to make choices when different vectors contradict each other. Otherwise, interesting people wouldn't emerge in cities, and they do.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
maldusiecle 2y ago
Yes, but it's nonsense to equate identity with difficulty. The goth scene originated in a London nightclub, for goodness' sake (the Batcave). There are goths in every big city, and in a lot of cases they move to places _where the scene is_ so that they can participate.
- dfxm12 2y ago
  FWIW, the joke is presented as a joke, not a philosophical proof. Nonsense tends to be a component of humor.
vid 2y ago
In my experience and logically, goths might form in smaller centres (or cities) but will converge in cities when they pursue university, careers, or richer environments. I hung out with goths in Toronto in the 90s, some were there for fashion reasons but many were quite committed including developing their own takes (hippy-goth, techno-goth, etc). The article's use of goths as an example is stretched.

by dfxm12 2y ago

dkarl 2y ago

In a small town pre-internet (I can't speak to now), goth could be a way of outwardly embracing an invisible social fact. When people felt rejected and excluded, some conformed and abased themselves to get back into the social good graces of the in-crowd, and others burned their bridges to show their defiance. Goth was one flavor of the latter. God, small towns are shitty. Anyone who romanticizes small towns or small involuntary communities of any kind must see themselves as permanently part of the dominant group. EDIT: To bring this back to the article, I guess it's nice if the country is now a place where being goth can be about "a quiet confidence, which manifests externally as shyness" instead of being about "if I accepted the community's evaluation of me, I would have to erase myself, and I still have enough of a survival instinct to fight against that." Also, I disagree with this part: > In the city the vectors come from many directions, but cancel out and you remain more or less a circle. In the country you get repeated perturbation by a few vectors that deforms you into a spiky, interesting shape.” Being interesting can be about responding to different vectors of scrutiny differently. You can respond to them all and still be interesting if you respond in a mild way to some and an extreme way to others, and you're willing to make choices when different vectors contradict each other. Otherwise, interesting people wouldn't emerge in cities, and they do.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

maldusiecle 2y ago

Yes, but it's nonsense to equate identity with difficulty. The goth scene originated in a London nightclub, for goodness' sake (the Batcave). There are goths in every big city, and in a lot of cases they move to places _where the scene is_ so that they can participate.

dfxm12 2y ago
FWIW, the joke is presented as a joke, not a philosophical proof. Nonsense tends to be a component of humor.

vid 2y ago

In my experience and logically, goths might form in smaller centres (or cities) but will converge in cities when they pursue university, careers, or richer environments. I hung out with goths in Toronto in the 90s, some were there for fashion reasons but many were quite committed including developing their own takes (hippy-goth, techno-goth, etc). The article's use of goths as an example is stretched.