4 ms·

Policing the internet in Germany, where hate speech, insults are a crime [video]

13 points by BSDobelix 2y ago

stop50 2y ago
Article 1 of the consitution of Germany: Human dignity is inviolable. It is the duty of all state authority to respect and protect it. Article 5 of the constitution: Everyone shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by radio and film are guaranteed. Censorship does not take place. These two articles are the relevant bases for the laws talked about the video.
- Simulacra 2y ago
  I don't understand, how does this correspond with the 60 minutes video of the German prosecutors saying if you insult someone you will be prosecuted? It would seem their comments conflict with the constitution.
  - stop50 2y ago
    In Germany Insults and similar things are not seen as an opinion. They hurt the dignity of an person.
    - underseacables 2y ago
      But who decides if it is an insult?
      - BSDobelix 2y ago
        Whoever is in power atm ;) Also, searching homes is a last resort, and having your home searched also hurts the dignity of a person. https://se-legal.de/criminal-defense-lawyer/house-searches-seizure-in-german-criminal-law/?lang=en https://se-legal.de/criminal-defense-lawyer/house-searches-s... https://winheller.com/blog/en/unlawful-house-search-germany/ https://winheller.com/blog/en/unlawful-house-search-germany/ Also Hate-Aid is exactly the state sponsored organization who collect "Hate-Speech" that is below law-action, and certifies "trusted-flaggers" in social media. https://hateaid.org/trusted-flagger/ https://hateaid.org/trusted-flagger/ BTW one of the very few good german movies on netflix: The Lives of Others
      - stop50 2y ago
        Usually the insulted person and a judge
      - paleotrope 2y ago
        Well the Gestadt poleizi of course.
lostmsu 2y ago
Is the situation similar in Austria?
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  In regards to censoring/limiting free speech on the bs grounds of "protecting people's dignity" and "not repeating Nazi past", mostly yes it's the same shit as in Germany.
deepbluev7 2y ago
As a German the American understanding of free speech is always an interesting clash of cultures. Germans generally see free speech as a freedom of opinion and the expression of opinions as something to protect. Historically such free speech has often been under threat by using actual threats and insults, especially in Germany. As such people should have ways to prosecute such attacks against their free speech legally. Additionally people do have their dignity and when you start attacking someone's dignity that very quickly leads to leaving facts behind and focusing emotional persecution of people or groups. That's why both the human dignity and free speech have a very high standing in the German constitution, but the human dignity does rank somewhat higher. The US on the other hand seems to focus more on being allowed to say anything and people have to defend themselves against any verbal attacks with little protection from the state. From my perspective that seems to be in conflict with fostering actual free speech. The president or anybody else could put up a wrong statement about you or even tell people to attack you and that seems to be protected as free speech, even though it will prevent you from voicing your own opinions and as such restrict your own free speech. Now of course treating insults or attacks against the human dignity as crimes is a two-edged sword. Such laws can and are misused. Regulating such a field is hard and often ends up being a court decision. But there are plenty of people who are sent threats and insults every day, just because they are politically active and giving them a way to protect themselves is important for our democracy. And there are plenty of other laws getting misused as well. The solution is refining them to make them harder to abuse and punishing people who do abuse them. It is not a solution to just give up regulating something, just because it might be hard at the start. Now maybe people from the US will never agree with Germans here. But maybe that is just part of our differences in culture. Germany went through fascism before and our constitution is part of our way to protect ourselves from going down that path ever again. Putting human dignity as the first articles is a big part of that as are our way of protecting free speech. Inciting public violence against minorities was one of the ways fascism started in Germany and as a result we have laws against that. We learned from our history because we don't want to repeat it and criticising our interpretation of free speech without understanding how we arrived at our interpretation of it feels somewhat rude. Which doesn't mean I don't welcome discussion around it, but if you want to discuss it, please try to understand the context around it instead of just pointing at how you are doing things differently and picking one or two negative examples.
MichaelJFuchs5 2y ago
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13 points by BSDobelix 2y ago

Article 1 of the consitution of Germany: Human dignity is inviolable. It is the duty of all state authority to respect and protect it. Article 5 of the constitution: Everyone shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by radio and film are guaranteed. Censorship does not take place. These two articles are the relevant bases for the laws talked about the video.

Simulacra 2y ago
I don't understand, how does this correspond with the 60 minutes video of the German prosecutors saying if you insult someone you will be prosecuted? It would seem their comments conflict with the constitution.
- stop50 2y ago
  In Germany Insults and similar things are not seen as an opinion. They hurt the dignity of an person.
  - underseacables 2y ago
    But who decides if it is an insult?
    - BSDobelix 2y ago
      Whoever is in power atm ;) Also, searching homes is a last resort, and having your home searched also hurts the dignity of a person. https://se-legal.de/criminal-defense-lawyer/house-searches-seizure-in-german-criminal-law/?lang=en https://se-legal.de/criminal-defense-lawyer/house-searches-s... https://winheller.com/blog/en/unlawful-house-search-germany/ https://winheller.com/blog/en/unlawful-house-search-germany/ Also Hate-Aid is exactly the state sponsored organization who collect "Hate-Speech" that is below law-action, and certifies "trusted-flaggers" in social media. https://hateaid.org/trusted-flagger/ https://hateaid.org/trusted-flagger/ BTW one of the very few good german movies on netflix: The Lives of Others
    - stop50 2y ago
      Usually the insulted person and a judge
    - paleotrope 2y ago
      Well the Gestadt poleizi of course.

lostmsu 2y ago

Is the situation similar in Austria?

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
In regards to censoring/limiting free speech on the bs grounds of "protecting people's dignity" and "not repeating Nazi past", mostly yes it's the same shit as in Germany.

deepbluev7 2y ago

As a German the American understanding of free speech is always an interesting clash of cultures. Germans generally see free speech as a freedom of opinion and the expression of opinions as something to protect. Historically such free speech has often been under threat by using actual threats and insults, especially in Germany. As such people should have ways to prosecute such attacks against their free speech legally. Additionally people do have their dignity and when you start attacking someone's dignity that very quickly leads to leaving facts behind and focusing emotional persecution of people or groups. That's why both the human dignity and free speech have a very high standing in the German constitution, but the human dignity does rank somewhat higher. The US on the other hand seems to focus more on being allowed to say anything and people have to defend themselves against any verbal attacks with little protection from the state. From my perspective that seems to be in conflict with fostering actual free speech. The president or anybody else could put up a wrong statement about you or even tell people to attack you and that seems to be protected as free speech, even though it will prevent you from voicing your own opinions and as such restrict your own free speech. Now of course treating insults or attacks against the human dignity as crimes is a two-edged sword. Such laws can and are misused. Regulating such a field is hard and often ends up being a court decision. But there are plenty of people who are sent threats and insults every day, just because they are politically active and giving them a way to protect themselves is important for our democracy. And there are plenty of other laws getting misused as well. The solution is refining them to make them harder to abuse and punishing people who do abuse them. It is not a solution to just give up regulating something, just because it might be hard at the start. Now maybe people from the US will never agree with Germans here. But maybe that is just part of our differences in culture. Germany went through fascism before and our constitution is part of our way to protect ourselves from going down that path ever again. Putting human dignity as the first articles is a big part of that as are our way of protecting free speech. Inciting public violence against minorities was one of the ways fascism started in Germany and as a result we have laws against that. We learned from our history because we don't want to repeat it and criticising our interpretation of free speech without understanding how we arrived at our interpretation of it feels somewhat rude. Which doesn't mean I don't welcome discussion around it, but if you want to discuss it, please try to understand the context around it instead of just pointing at how you are doing things differently and picking one or two negative examples.

MichaelJFuchs5 2y ago

[dead]