4 ms·

I think american suburban goths are basically teenagers readings of European urban trends

wiether 2y ago
It always felt like "goth" as we see it here was a product of American culture? At least when I was a teenager, the goth people were into Avril Lavigne, Marilyn Manson & other american artists. Which was weird because, at the same time, we were taught about gothic cathedrals and churches, which were a pure European product.
- dfxm12 2y ago
  I know goth (the subculture, which is distinct from "gothic architecture") has many meanings to many different people, but they all go through Siouxsie Sioux, Ian Curtis and that subculture in late 70s UK. It seems like that's what we're talking about here, too. Manson came later & certainly drew influence from there in addition to glam and, probably most heavily, industrial metal. Avril Lavigne was a Canadian pop star who drew from the pop-punk aesthetic. She wasn't goth at all.
  - wiether 2y ago
    Like parent comment I was talking about perception, not reality.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  no, it comes from UK post-punk 1977-1980. > Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, Bauhaus and the Cure were examples of post-punk bands who shifted to dark overtones in their music, which would later spawn the gothic rock scene in the early 1980s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-punk#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-punk#United_Kingdom The later artists that you listed are not regarded by that wave as being "really" goth at all.
  - JKCalhoun 2y ago
    Yep. When I hear goth I think Bauhaus, Joy Division....
  - wiether 2y ago
    Parent comment was saying that US goths are a reading of European trends. Meanwhile, I was saying that here (in France) and during my teens, goths where actually seen as a product of American culture. I wasn't saying that the goth culture is coming from America, but that people who identified as goths were inspired mostly by American artists.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
      > people who identified as goths were inspired mostly by American artists My peers and I certainly were not. It was mostly or entirely inspired by UK artists. Later waves may be different, there might indeed be people inspired by Vision Video, Twin Tribes and Boy Harsher (all current US). Or by the German scene.
- TransAtlToonz 2y ago
  I think I would describe these as "scene kids", which is often conflated with "goth" but is quite different culturally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_(subculture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_(subculture) If a scene kid is dressed mostly in black—which is always common—they would probably be conflated with goth pretty easily. (...and frankly few of the people I grew up with were even aware of the difference; this is certainly something imposed partially in retrospect to describe trends.) EDIT: the same as the above but with "emo", which is much closer to the goth all-black look I guess, but still looks compiled at the mall rather than the DIY look that goth typically implies. "True goth" (i.e. someone associated with the original UK scene) can be found here, but you'll want to hit up an eighties night at the alt club to find it. Then there's a lot of people who dress in black and don't particularly care about goth music, but they're still colloquially referred to as goth. It really depends who you're around and how deep they are into music culture how these fits are interpreted and named. For the most part these days, these music subcultures blur pretty heavily and policing/being sticklers about whether or not someone is a "poser" is frowned upon. For instance, I have a friend who dresses distinctly punk, and likes to attend punk shows, but does not call herself punk just to avoid dealing with kids who are eager to establish an identity by mocking a "poser" (which, tbh, I feel like if you're over 35 the concept should be absurd).
- zem 2y ago
  gothic architecture, gothic literature, and the goth subculture are three very different uses of the word, all of which likewise have nothing to do with the original goths. (tangentially, there are amusing tshirts saying "if you're really a goth, where were you when we sacked rome?!")

It always felt like "goth" as we see it here was a product of American culture? At least when I was a teenager, the goth people were into Avril Lavigne, Marilyn Manson & other american artists. Which was weird because, at the same time, we were taught about gothic cathedrals and churches, which were a pure European product.

dfxm12 2y ago
I know goth (the subculture, which is distinct from "gothic architecture") has many meanings to many different people, but they all go through Siouxsie Sioux, Ian Curtis and that subculture in late 70s UK. It seems like that's what we're talking about here, too. Manson came later & certainly drew influence from there in addition to glam and, probably most heavily, industrial metal. Avril Lavigne was a Canadian pop star who drew from the pop-punk aesthetic. She wasn't goth at all.
- wiether 2y ago
  Like parent comment I was talking about perception, not reality.
SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
no, it comes from UK post-punk 1977-1980. > Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, Bauhaus and the Cure were examples of post-punk bands who shifted to dark overtones in their music, which would later spawn the gothic rock scene in the early 1980s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-punk#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-punk#United_Kingdom The later artists that you listed are not regarded by that wave as being "really" goth at all.
- JKCalhoun 2y ago
  Yep. When I hear goth I think Bauhaus, Joy Division....
- wiether 2y ago
  Parent comment was saying that US goths are a reading of European trends. Meanwhile, I was saying that here (in France) and during my teens, goths where actually seen as a product of American culture. I wasn't saying that the goth culture is coming from America, but that people who identified as goths were inspired mostly by American artists.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    > people who identified as goths were inspired mostly by American artists My peers and I certainly were not. It was mostly or entirely inspired by UK artists. Later waves may be different, there might indeed be people inspired by Vision Video, Twin Tribes and Boy Harsher (all current US). Or by the German scene.
TransAtlToonz 2y ago
I think I would describe these as "scene kids", which is often conflated with "goth" but is quite different culturally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_(subculture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_(subculture) If a scene kid is dressed mostly in black—which is always common—they would probably be conflated with goth pretty easily. (...and frankly few of the people I grew up with were even aware of the difference; this is certainly something imposed partially in retrospect to describe trends.) EDIT: the same as the above but with "emo", which is much closer to the goth all-black look I guess, but still looks compiled at the mall rather than the DIY look that goth typically implies. "True goth" (i.e. someone associated with the original UK scene) can be found here, but you'll want to hit up an eighties night at the alt club to find it. Then there's a lot of people who dress in black and don't particularly care about goth music, but they're still colloquially referred to as goth. It really depends who you're around and how deep they are into music culture how these fits are interpreted and named. For the most part these days, these music subcultures blur pretty heavily and policing/being sticklers about whether or not someone is a "poser" is frowned upon. For instance, I have a friend who dresses distinctly punk, and likes to attend punk shows, but does not call herself punk just to avoid dealing with kids who are eager to establish an identity by mocking a "poser" (which, tbh, I feel like if you're over 35 the concept should be absurd).
zem 2y ago
gothic architecture, gothic literature, and the goth subculture are three very different uses of the word, all of which likewise have nothing to do with the original goths. (tangentially, there are amusing tshirts saying "if you're really a goth, where were you when we sacked rome?!")