3 ms·

I absolutely hate the Elon hypetrain, but I also don't understand the social media hate I see for AI, like comparing every ChatGPT answer to one wasted bottle o

by awongh 2y ago

I absolutely hate the Elon hypetrain, but I also don't understand the social media hate I see for AI, like comparing every ChatGPT answer to one wasted bottle of water. Can we stop for a second and just marvel at a new piece of human ingenuity? Let's not give Elon too much credit, but I think that AI as a whole helps us all understand the nature of intelligence, and therefore humans' place in the universe. One of the fundamental questions of human existence is: what does it mean to exist and think? Every time we build a new human-like thing it helps us understand the context of our own existence. (Not just computers or AI, but also airplanes, factories, etc.) True AGI would force us to rethink what it means to be a thinking human being, and I think current LLMs already should and do.

lionkor 2y ago
LLMs don't make me question what we know about humans and thinking. They are really good at convincing us that they're good, but really, that's other humans building stuff to convince us that it's good. There is no intelligence here, other than the perceived intelligence of predicting words intelligent people have written previously.
- psytrancefan 2y ago
  It does make me question humans and thinking but in the opposite direction. It is like sitting down at a piano, sight reading a piece from sheet music and then someone who has no idea what they are talking about claiming you composed the music on the fly. Then when you point out the sheet music they just double down on some bullshit as to why they are still right and that is still composing even though obviously it is not.
  - ngneer 2y ago
    Best analogy so far. I am adopting this for the next wave of "wait until the next model" and "but humans hallucinate, too" comments. Yes, when we feed back our own output (language on the web) into ourselves, things become tricky to tease apart, and it would seem like intelligence to us. Then again, the mechanical turk appears intelligent, too. If we point out how it works, then the "magic" should vanish.
- awongh 2y ago
  > There is no intelligence here, other than the perceived intelligence of predicting words intelligent people have written previously. I think this is my main point- isn't it amazing that a thing that predicts words other humans have previously written manages to appear intelligent, or, more pointedly, have utility in communicating real thoughts and ideas? If you've ever asked an LLM a question and gotten a satisfying answer, that means that there is some human-level intelligence somewhere in the token filtering / recombinating that an LLM does. Specifically I think the test of human-like intelligence is literally the output- If we get utility from the arrangements of the tokens it outputs, that in and of itself demonstrates that some portion of human intelligence could be this same token generation mechanic.
  - ngneer 2y ago
    No. Just means we are easy to fool. Like apes who see themselves in the mirror and fail to recognize they are seeing themselves in the mirror, thinking it is a different ape (and trying to mate with or attack it).
    - awongh 2y ago
      The invention of the mirror by humans probably provided an interesting insight into our own existence... I wonder what it would have been like to see your own reflection for the first time as a technology. How would that change your outlook on your self-hood and identity?
      - ngneer 2y ago
        Great question to ponder. Surely people would have seen their own reflections in water, but the mirror itself would have made "Reflection Technology" for "Artificial Introspection" more scalable. I suspect the mirror offered modern people a new viewpoint, allowing one to see how one is perceived by others. I do not think selfhood and identity would have been affected. My main question is about when people came to behave differently than apes. Douglas Hofstadter's "The Mind's I" may have a few hints on perception of self for you.
- highfrequency 2y ago
  > There is no intelligence here Can you list a few demonstrations from a text-outputting computer program that would each convince you that there is intelligence here? Eg writing a bestselling novel, proving an unsolved number theory conjecture, etc. Or is your belief uncontestable?
  - esafak 2y ago
    I think he just needs the model to be installed in a humanoid robot.
  - ngneer 2y ago
    That's not really a fair question. To answer it, the OP would have to define intelligence. If you have done so already, then by all means, do share your definition. If not, then you are in no better position to claim intelligence than the OP is in claiming lack thereof.
coldpie 2y ago
> I also don't understand the social media hate I see for AI, like comparing every ChatGPT answer to one wasted bottle of water. Can we stop for a second and just marvel at a new piece of human ingenuity? I don't know, man. We're staring down the barrel of at best a WW3-event and at worst an extinction-event. We're doing absolutely nothing to stop it, even though we have all the answers and the resources to do so. Instead, we're making the problem even worse all so some marketers and scammers can spend someone else's money to generate garbage pictures and SEO spam, so the worst people on the planet can gain even more money and power than they already have. I'd love to be positive about this tech, I'm sure it's cool or whatever, but it's really hard to be positive about anything right now, especially when the tech in question is speeding us straight along the path to mass death. The world sucks and the people running the LLM stuff are amoral monsters putting all of their resources into making it worse. I'm not excited about any of this.
- samvher 2y ago
  What's happening definitely makes me nervous, but "at best a WW3-event and at worst an extinction-event" seems a bit much. Mainly because there are a _lot_ of unknowns. Better try to get comfortable with just riding this out.
  - coldpie 2y ago
    It really isn't. Climate change is going to make large amounts of land unlivable. That's going to cause a climate refugee crisis. I agree the effects of that refugee crisis are unknown, but I can't see any resolution that doesn't involve increased nationalism, civil wars, and violent resource conflicts. Given this is a global crisis, that's a recipe for WW3. This was all avoidable, of course. But instead of fixing it, we spent decades fiddling around with toys like LLMs. Whee.

by awongh 2y ago

lionkor 2y ago

LLMs don't make me question what we know about humans and thinking. They are really good at convincing us that they're good, but really, that's other humans building stuff to convince us that it's good. There is no intelligence here, other than the perceived intelligence of predicting words intelligent people have written previously.

psytrancefan 2y ago
It does make me question humans and thinking but in the opposite direction. It is like sitting down at a piano, sight reading a piece from sheet music and then someone who has no idea what they are talking about claiming you composed the music on the fly. Then when you point out the sheet music they just double down on some bullshit as to why they are still right and that is still composing even though obviously it is not.
- ngneer 2y ago
  Best analogy so far. I am adopting this for the next wave of "wait until the next model" and "but humans hallucinate, too" comments. Yes, when we feed back our own output (language on the web) into ourselves, things become tricky to tease apart, and it would seem like intelligence to us. Then again, the mechanical turk appears intelligent, too. If we point out how it works, then the "magic" should vanish.
awongh 2y ago
> There is no intelligence here, other than the perceived intelligence of predicting words intelligent people have written previously. I think this is my main point- isn't it amazing that a thing that predicts words other humans have previously written manages to appear intelligent, or, more pointedly, have utility in communicating real thoughts and ideas? If you've ever asked an LLM a question and gotten a satisfying answer, that means that there is some human-level intelligence somewhere in the token filtering / recombinating that an LLM does. Specifically I think the test of human-like intelligence is literally the output- If we get utility from the arrangements of the tokens it outputs, that in and of itself demonstrates that some portion of human intelligence could be this same token generation mechanic.
- ngneer 2y ago
  No. Just means we are easy to fool. Like apes who see themselves in the mirror and fail to recognize they are seeing themselves in the mirror, thinking it is a different ape (and trying to mate with or attack it).
  - awongh 2y ago
    The invention of the mirror by humans probably provided an interesting insight into our own existence... I wonder what it would have been like to see your own reflection for the first time as a technology. How would that change your outlook on your self-hood and identity?
    - ngneer 2y ago
      Great question to ponder. Surely people would have seen their own reflections in water, but the mirror itself would have made "Reflection Technology" for "Artificial Introspection" more scalable. I suspect the mirror offered modern people a new viewpoint, allowing one to see how one is perceived by others. I do not think selfhood and identity would have been affected. My main question is about when people came to behave differently than apes. Douglas Hofstadter's "The Mind's I" may have a few hints on perception of self for you.
highfrequency 2y ago
> There is no intelligence here Can you list a few demonstrations from a text-outputting computer program that would each convince you that there is intelligence here? Eg writing a bestselling novel, proving an unsolved number theory conjecture, etc. Or is your belief uncontestable?
- esafak 2y ago
  I think he just needs the model to be installed in a humanoid robot.
- ngneer 2y ago
  That's not really a fair question. To answer it, the OP would have to define intelligence. If you have done so already, then by all means, do share your definition. If not, then you are in no better position to claim intelligence than the OP is in claiming lack thereof.

coldpie 2y ago

> I also don't understand the social media hate I see for AI, like comparing every ChatGPT answer to one wasted bottle of water. Can we stop for a second and just marvel at a new piece of human ingenuity? I don't know, man. We're staring down the barrel of at best a WW3-event and at worst an extinction-event. We're doing absolutely nothing to stop it, even though we have all the answers and the resources to do so. Instead, we're making the problem even worse all so some marketers and scammers can spend someone else's money to generate garbage pictures and SEO spam, so the worst people on the planet can gain even more money and power than they already have. I'd love to be positive about this tech, I'm sure it's cool or whatever, but it's really hard to be positive about anything right now, especially when the tech in question is speeding us straight along the path to mass death. The world sucks and the people running the LLM stuff are amoral monsters putting all of their resources into making it worse. I'm not excited about any of this.

samvher 2y ago
What's happening definitely makes me nervous, but "at best a WW3-event and at worst an extinction-event" seems a bit much. Mainly because there are a _lot_ of unknowns. Better try to get comfortable with just riding this out.
- coldpie 2y ago
  It really isn't. Climate change is going to make large amounts of land unlivable. That's going to cause a climate refugee crisis. I agree the effects of that refugee crisis are unknown, but I can't see any resolution that doesn't involve increased nationalism, civil wars, and violent resource conflicts. Given this is a global crisis, that's a recipe for WW3. This was all avoidable, of course. But instead of fixing it, we spent decades fiddling around with toys like LLMs. Whee.