9 ms·

There are more than 1000 similar papers on red and near infrared. All pointing to its impact on mitochondria. Near Infrared (NIR) penetrates few cm, leading to

There are more than 1000 similar papers on red and near infrared. All pointing to its impact on mitochondria. Near Infrared (NIR) penetrates few cm, leading to its mitochondrial impact in muscle cells too. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=near+infrared+photo+bioillumination+mitochondria https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=near+i...

nwienert 2y ago
I've looked into red light at least a handful of nights, I never can come away with a conclusion. It seems like it helps, but it also seems super likely it doesn't do much. I've added the super high intensity arrays to my cart even, before reading into various studies and anecdotes and just not being convinced. What's the most convincing argument for it?
- theoreticalmal 2y ago
  You seem like you’re hoping someone will convince you to try it. Why don’t you get a cheap one and give it a shot and see if you feel any different?
  - nwienert 2y ago
    I typically don’t buy things unless I feel they have some utility, and it seems the cheap ones likely don’t do enough to notice.
    - its-summertime 2y ago
      Light is light.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        Some wavelengths don't penetrate so deep, and not all bulbs are the same brightness. I've seen obvious lies on some product descriptions on internet listings, therefore I wouldn't trust a specification claim like "x nm" or "y lumen", and unless I had tools to measure them I would not rely on them meeting those specifications.
        PeterStuer 2y ago
        Lumen does not measure much red light.
        ben_w 2y ago
        Lumens being perceputual brightness means any package listing it for IR is definitely lying; but that only makes it a first-pass filter, "no false positives" does not mean "no false negatives". e.g. even when it's about visible light, well, do you trust this claim of 500,000 lumen?: https://www.amazon.de/Shadowhawk-Rechargeable-Extremely-Waterproof-Emergencies/dp/B099S4CR82/ref=mp_s_a_1_14_sspa?crid=3ME1GUAUAQW3M&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.rh7FTpSGCyMorJnM69NNjPk3kR6q-fUx7my6W6A07lKkMrJlSbO56gSQC80ueRI-8IVNhj49zKIeHDQECwewKZhEJHBPNtQlVv1E0dsjUWbWmtSUS-yzDqoQ3JBRJeTJzWstZO3Wn9ZQxq26D3O6_Q3Rwcvi7CnmGRF1VpKo6Nk9fgmYCzPpCMqpgYvph1Hwa8kdIftD_ouZ7u1NcMMv4w.O8DOQKOrFgsd3g5-PyDxBRxsxAJAn5co_xEK6_XA4Ys&dib_tag=se&keywords=million+lumen&qid=1739873150&sprefix=million+lumen%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-14-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9zZWFyY2hfbXRm&psc=1 https://www.amazon.de/Shadowhawk-Rechargeable-Extremely-Wate...
        zimpenfish 2y ago
        > do you trust this claim of 500,000 lumen? Having watched Torque Test Channel test[0] these[1] kinds[2] of claims, no, no I do not. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp8dumORMA0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp8dumORMA0 [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBPQKeeYTfo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBPQKeeYTfo [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceA5xL6ggEw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceA5xL6ggEw
        its-summertime 2y ago
        Yeah but like, don't buy from temu or something, buy from digikey etc and just wire it yourself, its cheap enough to be able to fail 20 times without costing more than a burger.
    - bethekind 2y ago
      Build your own. But direct from Alibaba or mouser or digikey. The main science behind it is to hit the absorption peaks of a mitochondrial enzyme. You can make em bright, but be limited on how long you can use it, or dim and be forced to use it constantly for the same effect. Pulse width modulation is very important in this for penetration. High intensity allows for deeper penetration, but heats up cells causing stress. The ideal scenario is a really strong light, run at a really low duty cycle, allowing for both intensity AND low average wattage, this lessening thermal issues There might be other mechanisms of actions, as there are so many papers that say "light good", but until they can give a mechanism of action, I'm sticking with what I know
  - Fethbita 2y ago
    I have been wanting one of these and on multiple occasions tried to find some good quality lights. I have not been able to find one that I feel is trustworthy. Do you have any EU based recommendations?
    - ankitml 2y ago
      get a broad spectrum red light bulb, that is most well understood and is least risky. Cons is the targetted spectrum would be only a small portion of it but good thing is it is a 4$ cheap test. It worked for me for smaller issues, like minor burns, cuts etc.
- kenjackson 2y ago
  I've used it for a while now on my knees and ankles. Seems like it works. But honestly its hard for me to tell if anything works. I even question Tylenol. All of it seems like it may work some, but its not something I feel has a very acute impact at all. Without a controlled study, as an individual, how can I tell if my sprain got better in 6 days but would've taken 9 days otherwise???
  - anon84873628 2y ago
    You might want to look into BPC-157
    - andreareina 2y ago
      BPC 157 has little to no reliable data to say it works. https://open.spotify.com/episode/6WLUUia6qZjVredWBuOlr6 https://open.spotify.com/episode/6WLUUia6qZjVredWBuOlr6
      - cjbgkagh 2y ago
        A fair amount of anecdotal data though, it has helped me and others that I know. While the effect is pretty mild it is positive. Having a lifelong chronic condition I’m very sensitive to changes and have no discernible placebo effect. I’ve tried so many things that my prior belief when trying something new is that it wont work, so it’s a nice unexpected surprise when it does.
        BobaFloutist 2y ago
        Ghosts have a fair amount of anecdotal data. Homeopathy has a fair amount of anecdotal data.
        cjbgkagh 2y ago
        I am aware of survivorship bias but for that to apply BPC157 would have to be killing people, this peptide is widely used so if it was killing people we would know due to investigations into their deaths. People usually hear about this stuff peer to peer and they report back to their peers if it helped or not, so there is a before and after, and for those people there isn’t a selection criteria biased on success. If people don’t report back then others become very interested in why.
- unclad5968 2y ago
  Just go outside, there is lots of IR out there. If it feels good then get whatever gadget you want to emulate it inside.
- bethekind 2y ago
  Most of the stuff online is overpriced and beyond the mitochondrial enzyme absorption spectrum, I can't find any reasonable mechanism for action. I think your hesitance is valid
cowsaymoo 2y ago
A family member of mine is involved in research into using red/NIR light to improve brain injuries outcomes. Apparently it can also irradiate passing blood which then circulates with the same mitochondrial clean up signals, so it has some secondary effects on non-penetrated areas. I got to try a prototype LED helmet that blasts 90 watts of lensed, circumspaced NIR beams through the skull for 4 minutes. I can say that an hour later it leaves me feeling mildly buzzed. The main effect I can identify is a mild and general sense of stamina/energy. I used it before/after an all-nighter and didn't feel as impacted as I should have; analogous to how you feel the next morning after drinking at age 20 vs. age 30. All anecdotal of course. They took the helmet away to give to a kid with an recent brain injury, but swapped it with a hefty 2-foot, 1800W panel. It comes with tanning goggles and instructions saying to be nude and 12 inches away from it for 20 minutes per day--so a bit quacky. But it's apparently big in professional sports clinics for speeding tissue and joint healing.
- prododev 2y ago
  I mean, it is kinda quacky to treat someone with that until it's demonstrated by science. I'm open to the idea that light is an important regulator, but that effect should be easily observable if it's truly effective.
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    The topmost comment in this comment thread starts with the fact that there are over a thousand studies on this already, no? Even if the whole effect isn't well understood, it seems like there is some science behind this.
    - 0xEF 2y ago
      One could argue that the research goes all the way back to Dr Frederick Cook aboard the Belgica during an Antarctic expedition I which they became trapped by the sea ice. The men suffered from multiple maladies, scurvy included, with one of the prescribed treatments being to stand nude near a blazing fire for an hour. If his notes are to be believed, the men saw some immediate changed in their overall health beyond simply getting warm. By some accounts, he became a bit of a fanatic about how much we humans need the sun, after that.

nwienert 2y ago

I've looked into red light at least a handful of nights, I never can come away with a conclusion. It seems like it helps, but it also seems super likely it doesn't do much. I've added the super high intensity arrays to my cart even, before reading into various studies and anecdotes and just not being convinced. What's the most convincing argument for it?

theoreticalmal 2y ago
You seem like you’re hoping someone will convince you to try it. Why don’t you get a cheap one and give it a shot and see if you feel any different?
- nwienert 2y ago
  I typically don’t buy things unless I feel they have some utility, and it seems the cheap ones likely don’t do enough to notice.
  - its-summertime 2y ago
    Light is light.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Some wavelengths don't penetrate so deep, and not all bulbs are the same brightness. I've seen obvious lies on some product descriptions on internet listings, therefore I wouldn't trust a specification claim like "x nm" or "y lumen", and unless I had tools to measure them I would not rely on them meeting those specifications.
      - PeterStuer 2y ago
        Lumen does not measure much red light.
        ben_w 2y ago
        Lumens being perceputual brightness means any package listing it for IR is definitely lying; but that only makes it a first-pass filter, "no false positives" does not mean "no false negatives". e.g. even when it's about visible light, well, do you trust this claim of 500,000 lumen?: https://www.amazon.de/Shadowhawk-Rechargeable-Extremely-Waterproof-Emergencies/dp/B099S4CR82/ref=mp_s_a_1_14_sspa?crid=3ME1GUAUAQW3M&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.rh7FTpSGCyMorJnM69NNjPk3kR6q-fUx7my6W6A07lKkMrJlSbO56gSQC80ueRI-8IVNhj49zKIeHDQECwewKZhEJHBPNtQlVv1E0dsjUWbWmtSUS-yzDqoQ3JBRJeTJzWstZO3Wn9ZQxq26D3O6_Q3Rwcvi7CnmGRF1VpKo6Nk9fgmYCzPpCMqpgYvph1Hwa8kdIftD_ouZ7u1NcMMv4w.O8DOQKOrFgsd3g5-PyDxBRxsxAJAn5co_xEK6_XA4Ys&dib_tag=se&keywords=million+lumen&qid=1739873150&sprefix=million+lumen%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-14-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9zZWFyY2hfbXRm&psc=1 https://www.amazon.de/Shadowhawk-Rechargeable-Extremely-Wate...
        zimpenfish 2y ago
        > do you trust this claim of 500,000 lumen? Having watched Torque Test Channel test[0] these[1] kinds[2] of claims, no, no I do not. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp8dumORMA0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp8dumORMA0 [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBPQKeeYTfo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBPQKeeYTfo [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceA5xL6ggEw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceA5xL6ggEw
      - its-summertime 2y ago
        Yeah but like, don't buy from temu or something, buy from digikey etc and just wire it yourself, its cheap enough to be able to fail 20 times without costing more than a burger.
  - bethekind 2y ago
    Build your own. But direct from Alibaba or mouser or digikey. The main science behind it is to hit the absorption peaks of a mitochondrial enzyme. You can make em bright, but be limited on how long you can use it, or dim and be forced to use it constantly for the same effect. Pulse width modulation is very important in this for penetration. High intensity allows for deeper penetration, but heats up cells causing stress. The ideal scenario is a really strong light, run at a really low duty cycle, allowing for both intensity AND low average wattage, this lessening thermal issues There might be other mechanisms of actions, as there are so many papers that say "light good", but until they can give a mechanism of action, I'm sticking with what I know
- Fethbita 2y ago
  I have been wanting one of these and on multiple occasions tried to find some good quality lights. I have not been able to find one that I feel is trustworthy. Do you have any EU based recommendations?
  - ankitml 2y ago
    get a broad spectrum red light bulb, that is most well understood and is least risky. Cons is the targetted spectrum would be only a small portion of it but good thing is it is a 4$ cheap test. It worked for me for smaller issues, like minor burns, cuts etc.
kenjackson 2y ago
I've used it for a while now on my knees and ankles. Seems like it works. But honestly its hard for me to tell if anything works. I even question Tylenol. All of it seems like it may work some, but its not something I feel has a very acute impact at all. Without a controlled study, as an individual, how can I tell if my sprain got better in 6 days but would've taken 9 days otherwise???
- anon84873628 2y ago
  You might want to look into BPC-157
  - andreareina 2y ago
    BPC 157 has little to no reliable data to say it works. https://open.spotify.com/episode/6WLUUia6qZjVredWBuOlr6 https://open.spotify.com/episode/6WLUUia6qZjVredWBuOlr6
    - cjbgkagh 2y ago
      A fair amount of anecdotal data though, it has helped me and others that I know. While the effect is pretty mild it is positive. Having a lifelong chronic condition I’m very sensitive to changes and have no discernible placebo effect. I’ve tried so many things that my prior belief when trying something new is that it wont work, so it’s a nice unexpected surprise when it does.
      - BobaFloutist 2y ago
        Ghosts have a fair amount of anecdotal data. Homeopathy has a fair amount of anecdotal data.
        cjbgkagh 2y ago
        I am aware of survivorship bias but for that to apply BPC157 would have to be killing people, this peptide is widely used so if it was killing people we would know due to investigations into their deaths. People usually hear about this stuff peer to peer and they report back to their peers if it helped or not, so there is a before and after, and for those people there isn’t a selection criteria biased on success. If people don’t report back then others become very interested in why.
unclad5968 2y ago
Just go outside, there is lots of IR out there. If it feels good then get whatever gadget you want to emulate it inside.
bethekind 2y ago
Most of the stuff online is overpriced and beyond the mitochondrial enzyme absorption spectrum, I can't find any reasonable mechanism for action. I think your hesitance is valid

cowsaymoo 2y ago

A family member of mine is involved in research into using red/NIR light to improve brain injuries outcomes. Apparently it can also irradiate passing blood which then circulates with the same mitochondrial clean up signals, so it has some secondary effects on non-penetrated areas. I got to try a prototype LED helmet that blasts 90 watts of lensed, circumspaced NIR beams through the skull for 4 minutes. I can say that an hour later it leaves me feeling mildly buzzed. The main effect I can identify is a mild and general sense of stamina/energy. I used it before/after an all-nighter and didn't feel as impacted as I should have; analogous to how you feel the next morning after drinking at age 20 vs. age 30. All anecdotal of course. They took the helmet away to give to a kid with an recent brain injury, but swapped it with a hefty 2-foot, 1800W panel. It comes with tanning goggles and instructions saying to be nude and 12 inches away from it for 20 minutes per day--so a bit quacky. But it's apparently big in professional sports clinics for speeding tissue and joint healing.

prododev 2y ago
I mean, it is kinda quacky to treat someone with that until it's demonstrated by science. I'm open to the idea that light is an important regulator, but that effect should be easily observable if it's truly effective.
- Etheryte 2y ago
  The topmost comment in this comment thread starts with the fact that there are over a thousand studies on this already, no? Even if the whole effect isn't well understood, it seems like there is some science behind this.
  - 0xEF 2y ago
    One could argue that the research goes all the way back to Dr Frederick Cook aboard the Belgica during an Antarctic expedition I which they became trapped by the sea ice. The men suffered from multiple maladies, scurvy included, with one of the prescribed treatments being to stand nude near a blazing fire for an hour. If his notes are to be believed, the men saw some immediate changed in their overall health beyond simply getting warm. By some accounts, he became a bit of a fanatic about how much we humans need the sun, after that.