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Nobody seems to understand what college-level math is. This isn't balancing checkbooks, folks. I loved being a math major, and I have trouble doing simple mat

by jayferd 14y ago

Nobody seems to understand what college-level math is. This isn't balancing checkbooks, folks. I loved being a math major, and I have trouble doing simple math. College-level mathematics is about as far removed from the "real world" as you can get. We convince ourselves that this learning is valuable because those who have certificates saying they've learned it get better-paying jobs -- because we've convinced ourselves that it's valuable. Don't get me wrong - math is awesome, and everyone, especially young people, should have the opportunity to explore it. Perhaps it's helpful to think of math as a cultural activity, which is mostly removed from practical concerns.

photon137 14y ago
Your are confusing Math versus Applied Math. We take what we want to use in the study of engineering, physics, economics, finance and political science - pure Math develops those tools and they're highly useful. Is Math of a college level necessary for everyone? Certainly not. Should algebra be necessary for everyone - I think so (I think the same way about calculus). Nothing is necessary to perform your day-to-day duties - not even arithmetic - people have been getting by and been leading fruitful lives for thousands of years without that sort of stuff. So when people talk about learning Math as a life-skill they're dead wrong. But if you want to anything more that just get by - if you want to ask questions and support your arguments, analyze problems and come up with answers you can trust you gotta, oughta, shoulda learn Math.
eshvk 14y ago
I don't think she is talking about Math majors. She is talking about some requirements that other majors have to complete as part of finishing up their degree. Having said that, I know people in say computer science who struggled through Calculus not really caring for the subject. I can't imagine how things were for people in less technical disciplines. While Calculus is certainly important for CS majors (well probably about as much as say randomized algorithms), I can't help but ask why these classes are not replaced by a class in first order logic, especially if the end goal is to train people to think mathematically.
- _delirium 14y ago
  I agree that formal logic is probably a more relevant math-y course than calculus for the average CS student. But how to design these requirements is a longstanding problem, partly due to disagreements over what should be in a "technical core", and partly due to staffing and issues of uniformity. Calculus is probably more relevant than symbolic logic for many kinds of engineering, for example, so the course is already being offered. It's also seen by (most) mathematicians as a more central subject, so it's what goes in the core if the mathematics department is given responsibility for designing the core. Additional complications arise over what to do with things like statistics (in some places it's in the math department, while in others it's a separate department).
  - eshvk 14y ago
    Oh, I am not disagreeing with the importance of Calculus for engineering. However, calculus as a core tool for say biology majors? While, I know that there are a ton of biological models (say in population dynamics) that require knowledge of calculus, I feel like for most people, this becomes one of those hate it and get through it classes and we really need to rethink its importance.
    - _delirium 14y ago
      No disagreement there, and especially the way it's normally taught now, which can feel more like a course on special-case methods for performing symbolic integration. There is some understanding you gain by knowing how to work symbolic integrals (the chain rule, integration by parts, etc., etc.), but I wouldn't put it near the top of the list of things all students must know. The actual integration can be done fine by Mathematica or Maple; what's important is what you do with that.
- sanxiyn 14y ago
  Calculus is certainly not important for CS majors. Compared to, say, linear algebra. I always recommend http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/math-for-programmers.html http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/math-for-programmers... on math for programmers.

by jayferd 14y ago

photon137 14y ago

Your are confusing Math versus Applied Math. We take what we want to use in the study of engineering, physics, economics, finance and political science - pure Math develops those tools and they're highly useful. Is Math of a college level necessary for everyone? Certainly not. Should algebra be necessary for everyone - I think so (I think the same way about calculus). Nothing is necessary to perform your day-to-day duties - not even arithmetic - people have been getting by and been leading fruitful lives for thousands of years without that sort of stuff. So when people talk about learning Math as a life-skill they're dead wrong. But if you want to anything more that just get by - if you want to ask questions and support your arguments, analyze problems and come up with answers you can trust you gotta, oughta, shoulda learn Math.

eshvk 14y ago

I don't think she is talking about Math majors. She is talking about some requirements that other majors have to complete as part of finishing up their degree. Having said that, I know people in say computer science who struggled through Calculus not really caring for the subject. I can't imagine how things were for people in less technical disciplines. While Calculus is certainly important for CS majors (well probably about as much as say randomized algorithms), I can't help but ask why these classes are not replaced by a class in first order logic, especially if the end goal is to train people to think mathematically.

_delirium 14y ago
I agree that formal logic is probably a more relevant math-y course than calculus for the average CS student. But how to design these requirements is a longstanding problem, partly due to disagreements over what should be in a "technical core", and partly due to staffing and issues of uniformity. Calculus is probably more relevant than symbolic logic for many kinds of engineering, for example, so the course is already being offered. It's also seen by (most) mathematicians as a more central subject, so it's what goes in the core if the mathematics department is given responsibility for designing the core. Additional complications arise over what to do with things like statistics (in some places it's in the math department, while in others it's a separate department).
- eshvk 14y ago
  Oh, I am not disagreeing with the importance of Calculus for engineering. However, calculus as a core tool for say biology majors? While, I know that there are a ton of biological models (say in population dynamics) that require knowledge of calculus, I feel like for most people, this becomes one of those hate it and get through it classes and we really need to rethink its importance.
  - _delirium 14y ago
    No disagreement there, and especially the way it's normally taught now, which can feel more like a course on special-case methods for performing symbolic integration. There is some understanding you gain by knowing how to work symbolic integrals (the chain rule, integration by parts, etc., etc.), but I wouldn't put it near the top of the list of things all students must know. The actual integration can be done fine by Mathematica or Maple; what's important is what you do with that.
sanxiyn 14y ago
Calculus is certainly not important for CS majors. Compared to, say, linear algebra. I always recommend http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/math-for-programmers.html http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/math-for-programmers... on math for programmers.