6 ms·

EEG Study of Buddhist Jhāna Meditation (2019)

117 points by Curiositry 2y ago

nprateem 2y ago
I can recommend 2 books for those who want to try to learn, but tbh i think a retreat is still required to reach them: 1. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Right-Concentration-Practical-Guide-Jhanas/dp/1611802695 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Right-Concentration-Practical-Guide... 2. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-Bliss-Beyond-Meditators-Handbook/dp/0861712757 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-Bliss-Beyond-Meditators... Leigh Brasington reports that people he's spoken to who have studied kundalini yoga say the strong piti of the first jhana is the same as awakening the kundalini, so there's a bit of an "all roads lead to Rome" about these practices, which is encouraging. Both authors are on dharmaseed. Worth checking them out. They're both great teachers.
- MonkeyIsNull 2y ago
  Leigh is fantastic, I would also recommend Shaila Catherine's book `The Jhanas: A Practical Guide to Deep Meditative States`
  - nprateem 2y ago
    Yes a good book, but I found Ajahn Brahm more accessible on the 'deep' jhana side.
- nico 2y ago
  Excellent There are some great conversations and resources on r/streamentry on Reddit as well Also this is a good video interview about the neuroscience of jhanas: https://www.youtube.com/live/G6UBx95TJbQ?si=32XvUfFwp2lVRYnm https://www.youtube.com/live/G6UBx95TJbQ?si=32XvUfFwp2lVRYnm
  - v3ss0n 2y ago
    Jhana doesn't require to achieve first stage of stream entry - but it helps build concentration fast so in some Burmese Vipassana tradition, mediators are trained in to achieve just enough samahta and move to Vipassana. Just to the point of strong samadhi and then switch to Vipassana.(Mahasi) But in a few meditation center, first jhana needed to be attained to switch to Vipassana ( Thel inn guu and Paa Out traditions) . In one rare meditation tradition (Maung Htaung Myay Sinn), all four Rupa Jhana is trained till attained first and paractioners are given exercises and experiment with Jhana (45 days 8 hr a day meditation retreat with 30 days are full on Samahta and Jhana practices, then moves to Vipassana). Reasons for not going fully into jhana in traditions like mahasi is because Jhana practices have addicting qualities and paractioners will be dwelled unto that. And those with addictive personality would not let go of jhana and won't practice Vipassana.
- abeppu 2y ago
  But as Leigh Brasington spends a lot of time discussing, sources and teachers differ in their definitions of the jhanas. IIRC Brasington distinguishes between jhanas as described in the suttas (especially early suttas) and jhanas as described in the later commentaries like the Visuddhimagga, and he also gives a lot of attention to defining/translating the jhana factor terms in a somewhat idiosyncratic way. In this particular context, linking jhanas to specific EEG patterns, I think it's not entirely clear whether following another method would lead you to the same states visited by these Samatha Trust practitioners. I further think that Brasington and Ajahn Brahm differ meaningfully, in that Ajahn Brahm in his "preliminary" steps actually sets a pretty high bar.
  - nprateem 2y ago
    Yeah exactly, Leigh goes for what's been termed jhana-lite while Ajahn Brahm basically says if you don't see a nimita it's not legit. Maybe he's right, maybe he's just keeping it more elitist, or just swayed by the fact he's living a monastic lifestyle unlike Brasington (except on retreat), so accesses deeper states. But Leigh is no slouch and says he's been to all jhanas countless times (but also says he's not awake so...). That's the distinction he makes from those two parts of the canon, and argues that jhana lite is what the Buddha taught. For me, either of them would be an improvement over my normal waking state, so I'm not too concerned. But yeah, it's good to be aware of both perspectives, that's why i suggested them.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
zozbot234 2y ago
(2019)
- dang 2y ago
  Added above. Thanks!
morninglight 2y ago
[flagged]
abeppu 2y ago
The author of this study Paul Dennison also wrote a book Jhana Consciousness which discusses both this work as well as giving a more religious background on the jhanas, as well as the Samatha Trust organization that teaches the form of meditation specifically used by the participants in this study.
swayvil 2y ago
Hey I've done some samatha meditation. In samatha you do a thing with your attention. Your attention is basically your root sense. The sense behind your seeing, thinking, hearing, smelling etc. Your attention is usually all boggled and agitated, so it doesn't see so good. In samatha you de-agitate your attention. Make it calm. When it's calm you see better. Much better. Stuff that was invisible becomes visible. Samatha is a refined form of concentration. All of the people here are pretty familiar with concentration and what it's good for. So in samatha you just take it further.
- vosper 2y ago
  Sounds useful - do you still practice samatha meditation? If not then what made you stop?
  - swayvil 2y ago
    I do not practice samatha meditation anymore. I practice a different kind of meditation now. We basically have 2 kinds of meditation. 1) Concentrate on a thing for a while. 2) Watch sensations come and go while refraining from moving your attention in reaction to what you're watching. I did the first for a few years. Then I did both for a few years. Now I only do the second. Both deliver the calm but they do it differently. They also do some other stuff. The second is trickier than the first.
    - wslh 2y ago
      Is the second akin to zazen?
      - swayvil 2y ago
        Ya.
    - vosper 2y ago
      > Watch sensations come and go while refraining from moving your attention in reaction to what you're watching. This sounds like standard "mindfulness" meditation, to me.
v3ss0n 2y ago
Try fire Kasina, it is fastest way to achieve jhana with external object. It's brute force way so a bit rough with side effects and have long lasting effects. https://firekasina.org/ https://firekasina.org/ Edit: fixed url
- marcod 2y ago
  https://firekasina.org/ https://firekasina.org/
  - v3ss0n 2y ago
    Thanks, fixed.
- BizarroLand 2y ago
  When I learned about meditation as a teenager, I gave it a try. It was nice, a good way to relax. Then one day I wondered, could I visualize a lit red candle so vividly that my brain responded as if I were actually seeing it? Not in the amorphous form of imagination but as if the nerves in my eyes were transmitting the image of the candle to my brain. And I found that I could. Its terrifying at first, but you get used to it. Then I wondered, if I can meditate so hard that if I can make my eyes see something that is not there, can I meditate so hard that I can make my ears hear things that are not there? And I can. And it is far more terrifying. Do not recommend. It's much harder to control. The last thing you want when you are alone in your room, deep in meditation and your whole body is humming with the fundamental note of the universe trying to summon a phantom orchestra is to hear someone say things. That will straight up make you think you are crazy. Just to be clear, I did check, I don't see things or hear things when I am not trying to make myself see or hear them, and otherwise I am sane enough to operate in modern society.
  - v3ss0n 2y ago
    Yeah that's why firekisina is not recommended by most Buddhist Vipassana meditation paractioners. Without a mentor who understands it nearby it has side effects that can make one go crazy.
thatguysaguy 2y ago
It's nice that that the url to an article about studying mysticism with science could also be read as "Frontier Sin"
- 1attice 2y ago
  Buddhism is an organized faith that's older than Christianity, so I'd balk at calling it 'mysticism', let alone sin. This comment feels parochial. It also has an uncomfortable track record at getting to psychological facts before psychology does; probably that head start.
  - BizarroLand 2y ago
    The correct answer is not always the right answer
sophyphreak 2y ago
If you want to meet English-speaking monks who are dedicated to following the monastic rules, consider going to monastery in the Ajahn Chah lineage. There are others that are perfectly good (like Ajahn Brahm), but this lineage is unique in that you can find monasteries in the lineage all over the world. https://forestsangha.org/community/monasteries https://forestsangha.org/community/monasteries . This doesn't have much to do with jhanas. Just wanted to say

117 points by Curiositry 2y ago

I can recommend 2 books for those who want to try to learn, but tbh i think a retreat is still required to reach them: 1. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Right-Concentration-Practical-Guide-Jhanas/dp/1611802695 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Right-Concentration-Practical-Guide... 2. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-Bliss-Beyond-Meditators-Handbook/dp/0861712757 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-Bliss-Beyond-Meditators... Leigh Brasington reports that people he's spoken to who have studied kundalini yoga say the strong piti of the first jhana is the same as awakening the kundalini, so there's a bit of an "all roads lead to Rome" about these practices, which is encouraging. Both authors are on dharmaseed. Worth checking them out. They're both great teachers.

MonkeyIsNull 2y ago
Leigh is fantastic, I would also recommend Shaila Catherine's book `The Jhanas: A Practical Guide to Deep Meditative States`
- nprateem 2y ago
  Yes a good book, but I found Ajahn Brahm more accessible on the 'deep' jhana side.
nico 2y ago
Excellent There are some great conversations and resources on r/streamentry on Reddit as well Also this is a good video interview about the neuroscience of jhanas: https://www.youtube.com/live/G6UBx95TJbQ?si=32XvUfFwp2lVRYnm https://www.youtube.com/live/G6UBx95TJbQ?si=32XvUfFwp2lVRYnm
- v3ss0n 2y ago
  Jhana doesn't require to achieve first stage of stream entry - but it helps build concentration fast so in some Burmese Vipassana tradition, mediators are trained in to achieve just enough samahta and move to Vipassana. Just to the point of strong samadhi and then switch to Vipassana.(Mahasi) But in a few meditation center, first jhana needed to be attained to switch to Vipassana ( Thel inn guu and Paa Out traditions) . In one rare meditation tradition (Maung Htaung Myay Sinn), all four Rupa Jhana is trained till attained first and paractioners are given exercises and experiment with Jhana (45 days 8 hr a day meditation retreat with 30 days are full on Samahta and Jhana practices, then moves to Vipassana). Reasons for not going fully into jhana in traditions like mahasi is because Jhana practices have addicting qualities and paractioners will be dwelled unto that. And those with addictive personality would not let go of jhana and won't practice Vipassana.
abeppu 2y ago
But as Leigh Brasington spends a lot of time discussing, sources and teachers differ in their definitions of the jhanas. IIRC Brasington distinguishes between jhanas as described in the suttas (especially early suttas) and jhanas as described in the later commentaries like the Visuddhimagga, and he also gives a lot of attention to defining/translating the jhana factor terms in a somewhat idiosyncratic way. In this particular context, linking jhanas to specific EEG patterns, I think it's not entirely clear whether following another method would lead you to the same states visited by these Samatha Trust practitioners. I further think that Brasington and Ajahn Brahm differ meaningfully, in that Ajahn Brahm in his "preliminary" steps actually sets a pretty high bar.
- nprateem 2y ago
  Yeah exactly, Leigh goes for what's been termed jhana-lite while Ajahn Brahm basically says if you don't see a nimita it's not legit. Maybe he's right, maybe he's just keeping it more elitist, or just swayed by the fact he's living a monastic lifestyle unlike Brasington (except on retreat), so accesses deeper states. But Leigh is no slouch and says he's been to all jhanas countless times (but also says he's not awake so...). That's the distinction he makes from those two parts of the canon, and argues that jhana lite is what the Buddha taught. For me, either of them would be an improvement over my normal waking state, so I'm not too concerned. But yeah, it's good to be aware of both perspectives, that's why i suggested them.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

zozbot234 2y ago

(2019)

dang 2y ago
Added above. Thanks!

morninglight 2y ago

[flagged]

abeppu 2y ago

The author of this study Paul Dennison also wrote a book Jhana Consciousness which discusses both this work as well as giving a more religious background on the jhanas, as well as the Samatha Trust organization that teaches the form of meditation specifically used by the participants in this study.

swayvil 2y ago

Hey I've done some samatha meditation. In samatha you do a thing with your attention. Your attention is basically your root sense. The sense behind your seeing, thinking, hearing, smelling etc. Your attention is usually all boggled and agitated, so it doesn't see so good. In samatha you de-agitate your attention. Make it calm. When it's calm you see better. Much better. Stuff that was invisible becomes visible. Samatha is a refined form of concentration. All of the people here are pretty familiar with concentration and what it's good for. So in samatha you just take it further.

vosper 2y ago
Sounds useful - do you still practice samatha meditation? If not then what made you stop?
- swayvil 2y ago
  I do not practice samatha meditation anymore. I practice a different kind of meditation now. We basically have 2 kinds of meditation. 1) Concentrate on a thing for a while. 2) Watch sensations come and go while refraining from moving your attention in reaction to what you're watching. I did the first for a few years. Then I did both for a few years. Now I only do the second. Both deliver the calm but they do it differently. They also do some other stuff. The second is trickier than the first.
  - wslh 2y ago
    Is the second akin to zazen?
    - swayvil 2y ago
      Ya.
  - vosper 2y ago
    > Watch sensations come and go while refraining from moving your attention in reaction to what you're watching. This sounds like standard "mindfulness" meditation, to me.

v3ss0n 2y ago

Try fire Kasina, it is fastest way to achieve jhana with external object. It's brute force way so a bit rough with side effects and have long lasting effects. https://firekasina.org/ https://firekasina.org/ Edit: fixed url

marcod 2y ago
https://firekasina.org/ https://firekasina.org/
- v3ss0n 2y ago
  Thanks, fixed.
BizarroLand 2y ago
When I learned about meditation as a teenager, I gave it a try. It was nice, a good way to relax. Then one day I wondered, could I visualize a lit red candle so vividly that my brain responded as if I were actually seeing it? Not in the amorphous form of imagination but as if the nerves in my eyes were transmitting the image of the candle to my brain. And I found that I could. Its terrifying at first, but you get used to it. Then I wondered, if I can meditate so hard that if I can make my eyes see something that is not there, can I meditate so hard that I can make my ears hear things that are not there? And I can. And it is far more terrifying. Do not recommend. It's much harder to control. The last thing you want when you are alone in your room, deep in meditation and your whole body is humming with the fundamental note of the universe trying to summon a phantom orchestra is to hear someone say things. That will straight up make you think you are crazy. Just to be clear, I did check, I don't see things or hear things when I am not trying to make myself see or hear them, and otherwise I am sane enough to operate in modern society.
- v3ss0n 2y ago
  Yeah that's why firekisina is not recommended by most Buddhist Vipassana meditation paractioners. Without a mentor who understands it nearby it has side effects that can make one go crazy.

thatguysaguy 2y ago

It's nice that that the url to an article about studying mysticism with science could also be read as "Frontier Sin"

1attice 2y ago
Buddhism is an organized faith that's older than Christianity, so I'd balk at calling it 'mysticism', let alone sin. This comment feels parochial. It also has an uncomfortable track record at getting to psychological facts before psychology does; probably that head start.
- BizarroLand 2y ago
  The correct answer is not always the right answer

sophyphreak 2y ago

If you want to meet English-speaking monks who are dedicated to following the monastic rules, consider going to monastery in the Ajahn Chah lineage. There are others that are perfectly good (like Ajahn Brahm), but this lineage is unique in that you can find monasteries in the lineage all over the world. https://forestsangha.org/community/monasteries https://forestsangha.org/community/monasteries . This doesn't have much to do with jhanas. Just wanted to say