5 ms·

Sabine Hossenfelder has recently released a video about it: https://youtu.be/shFUDPqVmTg?si=xZAQZ725UEcO8lf_ https://youtu.be/shFUDPqVmTg?si=xZAQZ725UEcO8lf_

lokimedes 2y ago
Sabine really represents the “apathetic disillusioned” - no hope for fundamental physics. I left after we discovered the Higgs based on similar observations, there was too much invested in group think. If you have to raise $50B to ask “what happens if…” then the “if” has to be damned likely, or you have to share the risk with a large group. My own conclusion, back then, was that the collider paradigm had run its course. Without economical tools, and no theory to guide experiments, the field was stuck. I’m not apathetic though, and believe there are ways for both theories and experiments to break the stall. Theory could dig into the backlog of shortcuts and dirty tricks, that underlines the machinery of QFT, are there other ways of probing the quantum fields? Experimentalists can at the least get behind novel acceleration schemes like laser plasma wake fields, to reduce the massive capital risk of conducting model-free searches for new signatures. Or as the theorists, hunt for alternative ways to “excite the quantum fields”. This may Not be recipes, but as a community Particle physics has been way to focused on chasing resonances with ever larger machines.
- golergka 2y ago
  I think that there are two problems here: one with physics and another with society. I'm somewhat familiar with academic world, and what she (and the letter) say about career scientists who optimize for formal metrics without any regard for any real scientific value strikes too close to home. They value complacency above else, original ideas and challengers to incumbents are driven away, and nobody really cares if studies replicate or data is massaged, whereas being even remotely ideologically impure kills your career instantly. I think society across the globe slowly starts to realize this state of affairs, and the backlash against science as a whole will be enormous. In the eyes of the taxpayers, there's not that much of a difference between particle physicists who have been spending billions of dollars on bigger and bigger colliders, and psychologists who popularized non-replicating studies based on a sample of 35 university students but refused to touch IQ (one of the most, if not replicated psychology concepts ever), or biologists who invented new species out of thin air based on the most minuscule differences between population just to stop a development project they oppose for ideological reasons. All of this will cause severe backlash. Baby will be thrown out with the bathwater, trust and funding for science as a whole will suffer for decades.
  - ericjmorey 2y ago
    The current US Presidential administration is in the process of throwing the entire bathroom out, tub and all. We're going to have substantially less reliable data over the next decade.
    - golergka 2y ago
      Thankfully, we have more than one country in the world, and we can compare outcomes when different countries pursue different strategies. Results may surprise. 2,5 years ago I, as the rest of HN, was sure that Twitter wouldn't be able to function in a few months after layoffs, but here we are.
      - davorak 2y ago
        I did not see many people betting real money on twitter not running, did you? You have have to filter out the momentary hype. > The current US Presidential administration is in the process of throwing the entire bathroom out, tub and all. Are they, maybe, I have not seen any popularized document detailing their plans and they are taking large steps that will have consequences. Since there is not well popularized plan uncertainty and doubt is filling that void, a consequence which is easy to anticipate(as are some consequences of uncertainty and doubt). > We're going to have substantially less reliable data over the next decade. With no well popularized plan, hard to tell, and even harder because there are people hard at work on their own vision of the future that do not 100% line up with the current administration's plans and those people will influence the next decade as well.
        golergka 2y ago
        https://polymarket.com/event/will-twitter-report-any-outages-by-december-15-2022/will-twitter-report-any-outages-by-december-15-2022?tid=1739815074285 https://polymarket.com/event/will-twitter-report-any-outages...
      - bborud 2y ago
        Yes, here we are; I spend almost no time there now since every time I drop by all I see is political noise and culture wars. Most people I used to follow now either take part in the shit show or have lost interest in posting.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
Huh. I found myself nodding along, perhaps a bit hesitant to jump into conclusions[0], but then she drops from a final emotional outburst straight into... a sponsorship segment pushing some bullshit anti-data-broker data broker service. Feels like VPNs all over again, and I honestly can't treat the earlier parts of the video seriously anymore. I've seen her writings here and there over the years, and I remember she was generally respected as an opinionated expert. What happened? -- [0] - I've seen my share of dramas which started with a message like this video, and where I thought I had a good picture, until some time later some critical details came to light and I ended up flipping my stance on it 180°.
- kspacewalk2 2y ago
  >What happened? Respected and opinionated experts gotta eat
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Are things going that bad for scientists these days? (I'm not just reacting to the existence of a sponsorship section alone - more to the choice of the sponsor, the presentation, and the very juxtaposition of a "trust me while I quote from private conversation" and "this video was sponsored by a data broker company".)
- zen928 2y ago
  She wraps up the video and unofficially tells people to leave via 'let me know in the comments', then speaks unemotive capitalist brand advertisement speak about a product, and the video ends. I honestly can't see the merit in your performative outrage here. It's very clearly known why people take advertisement deals, and its placement here is after all the content concluded. You can find ways to dismiss opinions you don't like, but targeting individual contributors that use sponsorships to maintain or alleviate financial stability is an interesting attack. I guess if that's your only critique, you have no claims to any other negative critique about her points? Just a literal ad hominem? "What happened" to actual discourse?
  - 2y ago

lokimedes 2y ago

Sabine really represents the “apathetic disillusioned” - no hope for fundamental physics. I left after we discovered the Higgs based on similar observations, there was too much invested in group think. If you have to raise $50B to ask “what happens if…” then the “if” has to be damned likely, or you have to share the risk with a large group. My own conclusion, back then, was that the collider paradigm had run its course. Without economical tools, and no theory to guide experiments, the field was stuck. I’m not apathetic though, and believe there are ways for both theories and experiments to break the stall. Theory could dig into the backlog of shortcuts and dirty tricks, that underlines the machinery of QFT, are there other ways of probing the quantum fields? Experimentalists can at the least get behind novel acceleration schemes like laser plasma wake fields, to reduce the massive capital risk of conducting model-free searches for new signatures. Or as the theorists, hunt for alternative ways to “excite the quantum fields”. This may Not be recipes, but as a community Particle physics has been way to focused on chasing resonances with ever larger machines.

golergka 2y ago
I think that there are two problems here: one with physics and another with society. I'm somewhat familiar with academic world, and what she (and the letter) say about career scientists who optimize for formal metrics without any regard for any real scientific value strikes too close to home. They value complacency above else, original ideas and challengers to incumbents are driven away, and nobody really cares if studies replicate or data is massaged, whereas being even remotely ideologically impure kills your career instantly. I think society across the globe slowly starts to realize this state of affairs, and the backlash against science as a whole will be enormous. In the eyes of the taxpayers, there's not that much of a difference between particle physicists who have been spending billions of dollars on bigger and bigger colliders, and psychologists who popularized non-replicating studies based on a sample of 35 university students but refused to touch IQ (one of the most, if not replicated psychology concepts ever), or biologists who invented new species out of thin air based on the most minuscule differences between population just to stop a development project they oppose for ideological reasons. All of this will cause severe backlash. Baby will be thrown out with the bathwater, trust and funding for science as a whole will suffer for decades.
- ericjmorey 2y ago
  The current US Presidential administration is in the process of throwing the entire bathroom out, tub and all. We're going to have substantially less reliable data over the next decade.
  - golergka 2y ago
    Thankfully, we have more than one country in the world, and we can compare outcomes when different countries pursue different strategies. Results may surprise. 2,5 years ago I, as the rest of HN, was sure that Twitter wouldn't be able to function in a few months after layoffs, but here we are.
    - davorak 2y ago
      I did not see many people betting real money on twitter not running, did you? You have have to filter out the momentary hype. > The current US Presidential administration is in the process of throwing the entire bathroom out, tub and all. Are they, maybe, I have not seen any popularized document detailing their plans and they are taking large steps that will have consequences. Since there is not well popularized plan uncertainty and doubt is filling that void, a consequence which is easy to anticipate(as are some consequences of uncertainty and doubt). > We're going to have substantially less reliable data over the next decade. With no well popularized plan, hard to tell, and even harder because there are people hard at work on their own vision of the future that do not 100% line up with the current administration's plans and those people will influence the next decade as well.
      - golergka 2y ago
        https://polymarket.com/event/will-twitter-report-any-outages-by-december-15-2022/will-twitter-report-any-outages-by-december-15-2022?tid=1739815074285 https://polymarket.com/event/will-twitter-report-any-outages...
    - bborud 2y ago
      Yes, here we are; I spend almost no time there now since every time I drop by all I see is political noise and culture wars. Most people I used to follow now either take part in the shit show or have lost interest in posting.

TeMPOraL 2y ago

Huh. I found myself nodding along, perhaps a bit hesitant to jump into conclusions[0], but then she drops from a final emotional outburst straight into... a sponsorship segment pushing some bullshit anti-data-broker data broker service. Feels like VPNs all over again, and I honestly can't treat the earlier parts of the video seriously anymore. I've seen her writings here and there over the years, and I remember she was generally respected as an opinionated expert. What happened? -- [0] - I've seen my share of dramas which started with a message like this video, and where I thought I had a good picture, until some time later some critical details came to light and I ended up flipping my stance on it 180°.

kspacewalk2 2y ago
>What happened? Respected and opinionated experts gotta eat
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Are things going that bad for scientists these days? (I'm not just reacting to the existence of a sponsorship section alone - more to the choice of the sponsor, the presentation, and the very juxtaposition of a "trust me while I quote from private conversation" and "this video was sponsored by a data broker company".)
zen928 2y ago
She wraps up the video and unofficially tells people to leave via 'let me know in the comments', then speaks unemotive capitalist brand advertisement speak about a product, and the video ends. I honestly can't see the merit in your performative outrage here. It's very clearly known why people take advertisement deals, and its placement here is after all the content concluded. You can find ways to dismiss opinions you don't like, but targeting individual contributors that use sponsorships to maintain or alleviate financial stability is an interesting attack. I guess if that's your only critique, you have no claims to any other negative critique about her points? Just a literal ad hominem? "What happened" to actual discourse?
- 2y ago